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Old 10-24-2005, 08:20 AM   #211
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Wow, I can't believe I just slogged through 14 whole pages of this?
Adjust your settings....I only slogged through ten pages
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Old 10-24-2005, 09:38 AM   #212
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Originally posted by melon


And how many Christians know what Yom Kippur stands for? Or the reasoning behind Ramadan?

If children don't know what Christmas refers to, then their parents have failed, not their schools.

Melon
It was an observation, not a value judgment. Despite the tradition of Christmas parties in schools, no children are learning about Jesus Christ because of the parties. So there is no establishment threat here.
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Old 10-24-2005, 09:41 AM   #213
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Originally posted by STING2


Traditions do evolve over time. But they typcially don't change because a couple of people decided to go to court to force their political agenda on a country of 300 million people. Also, moving the main gift giving time from New Years Eve to Christmas in the late 19th century is not a very good parallel to what were talking about here.
Agreed. There is a significant difference between changing traditions in society, and a small group trying to eliminate a tradition they have labeled "offensive".
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Old 10-24-2005, 09:45 AM   #214
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why do you keep talking about moving to another country. This isn't about people moving here wanting to make a change. It's about the people here realizing this country is not a Christian country. That there are other religions and when attending school, we should take that into consideration.
No, you are not asking to take other faiths into consideration. You've explicitly stated that using the word "Christmas" should be justified somehow.

The "people here" wanting the change will argue that Christians are a majority (so they should complain about bigotry directed at them), yet flip and say this is not a Christian country (no one has argued that it is exlusively Christian).

We've gotten to the point that secular Christmas can be labeled "exclusionary" and thus should be removed from public view.
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Old 10-24-2005, 09:47 AM   #215
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Originally posted by melon
This kind of stubborn insistence on "Christmas parties" in schools is really more for the adults than children. I'm fairly sure I would have jumped at any chance to discover new traditions and cultures, especially since "real Christmas" is December 25th.

But it's the adults who are scared of multiculturalism, and--the larger subtext--losing cultural domination of America.

Melon
Ah, now we get to the subtle charge of bigotry.


It was only a matter of time.
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Old 10-24-2005, 10:08 AM   #216
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


No, you are not asking to take other faiths into consideration. You've explicitly stated that using the word "Christmas" should be justified somehow.

The "people here" wanting the change will argue that Christians are a majority (so they should complain about bigotry directed at them), yet flip and say this is not a Christian country (no one has argued that it is exlusively Christian).

We've gotten to the point that secular Christmas can be labeled "exclusionary" and thus should be removed from public view.

fine you can have your party.

just agree to call it an "Xmas party."

this isn't a Christian country, in that it isn't a theocracy (yet ... don't worry, i'm standing guard), but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions. to everyone else, it seems odd that a majority, who seem to set the tone for political discourse which has become frighteningly imbued with religiosity, and that this majority is often extremely public about their faith (as they are allowed to do so) also seem to be looking to find places for them to feel discriminated against.

it's the same principle that has given Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, G. Gordon Liddy, Sean Hannity, and especially Bill O'Reilly their success -- what they've done is manage to make white people, especially white males, feel as if they are victims of such boogeymen as "political correctness." they market nostalgia, and lies of a past that never existed, and cover up those who were excluded and marginalized in the past, and people eat it up.
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Old 10-24-2005, 11:29 AM   #217
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Originally posted by Irvine511
this isn't a Christian country, in that it isn't a theocracy (yet ... don't worry, i'm standing guard), but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions. to everyone else, it seems odd that a majority, who seem to set the tone for political discourse which has become frighteningly imbued with religiosity, and that this majority is often extremely public about their faith (as they are allowed to do so) also seem to be looking to find places for them to feel discriminated against.
Before tossing out an argument, you should make sure the reverse does not apply to yourself.
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Old 10-24-2005, 11:32 AM   #218
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I went to a high school where Jews actually outnumbered Christians. We didn't have a Christmas party, we had a Hannukah (I know, I murdered the spelling) party at which the Jewish students read from the Torah and other assorted Jewish texts. It was pretty cool.
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Old 10-24-2005, 11:39 AM   #219
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Originally posted by verte76
I went to a high school where Jews actually outnumbered Christians. We didn't have a Christmas party, we had a Hannukah (I know, I murdered the spelling) party at which the Jewish students read from the Torah and other assorted Jewish texts. It was pretty cool.


Both my kids have celebrated Hanukkah in public school (no reading of the Torah, however).

Curiously, there was no stampede to protect the non-Jewish students from a perception of "exclusion". But, then again, rarely are these arguments based on principles consistently applied.
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Old 10-24-2005, 11:54 AM   #220
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Before tossing out an argument, you should make sure the reverse does not apply to yourself.


care to expound?

could it be that one group has a much, much better case to make when it comes to being discriminated against than other groups?

i favor a Constitutional Amendment to ban Christmas.

how's that feel?
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Old 10-24-2005, 11:56 AM   #221
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Originally posted by nbcrusader




Both my kids have celebrated Hanukkah in public school (no reading of the Torah, however).

Curiously, there was no stampede to protect the non-Jewish students from a perception of "exclusion". But, then again, rarely are these arguments based on principles consistently applied.


for gosh sakes, there's nothing wrong with having holiday celebrations in schools, there is a problem when they use exclusive nomenclature.

why can't the 5th graders simply have a Holiday Party, and during that afternoon on the Thursday before Xmas vacation, all the kids learn about and make decorations and celebrate and learn the traditions of all the major holidays that tend to take place in December?

why is that such an affont to Christmas?
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:15 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Both my kids have celebrated Hanukkah in public school (no reading of the Torah, however).

Curiously, there was no stampede to protect the non-Jewish students from a perception of "exclusion". But, then again, rarely are these arguments based on principles consistently applied.
If your kids were not allowed to have a "Christmas" celebration at the same time (or an appropriate other date), then it was definitely exclusionary and there would definitely be an inconsistency. If they were allowed, however, than you have no case.

Are you suggesting you had a problem with it personally?
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:16 PM   #223
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Originally posted by Irvine511
care to expound?

could it be that one group has a much, much better case to make when it comes to being discriminated against than other groups?
Let's take your original phrase:

"but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."


and change a couple of words:

"but that the country has many, many liberals who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."



And there is no argument for discrimination. It has only been a rather vague concept of "feeling excluded".
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:18 PM   #224
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Let's take your original phrase:

"but that the country has many, many Christians who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."


and change a couple of words:

"but that the country has many, many liberals who appear determined to make it so by complaining every time the country itself or American culture doesn't reflect their own specific set of values and traditions."
I'd rather complain in favor of inclusion (liberalism) than complain in favor of exclusion (conservatism).

Melon
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:20 PM   #225
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Originally posted by yolland

If your kids were not allowed to have a "Christmas" celebration at the same time (or an appropriate other date), then it was definitely exclusionary and there would definitely be an inconsistency. If they were allowed, however, than you have no case.

Are you suggesting you had a problem with it personally?
No, I had no problem with it personally.

And there were aspects of secular Christmas in the classroom (all the kids made reindeer t-shirts).

The point is: no one made an effort to remove words that were rooted in various religions.
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