The War on Christmas - Page 10 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-22-2005, 03:34 PM   #136
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What do you mean MY US culture?? This is really stretching.
Not stretching, how much does Christmas mean to Muslim, Jewish, athiest etc Americans?

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

You've essentially validated the author's argument by saying "Christmas doesn't apply to everyone, therefor we should completely remove it from public view (Christians must justify their use of the word Christmas).
No I'm not saying remove it from public view. Some of you are missing the point. I'm not saying remove Christmas from anything except where one doesn't have a choice to participate. Like schools. Have a party that celebrates the holidays, and let the children celebrate their faith's holiday at home, in church, malls or wherever.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-22-2005, 04:34 PM   #137
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
No I'm not saying remove it from public view. Some of you are missing the point. I'm not saying remove Christmas from anything except where one doesn't have a choice to participate. Like schools. Have a party that celebrates the holidays, and let the children celebrate their faith's holiday at home, in church, malls or wherever.
So, a part of our collective culture (being the melting pot that we are) is to be singled out for removal from public view? Christmas parties were not instituted as part of some "right-wing" Christian agenda. But their removal (even requiring justification of saying the word) sure does seem to be part of someone's agenda.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 05:02 PM   #138
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


So, a part of our collective culture (being the melting pot that we are) is to be singled out for removal from public view?
I just said, I'm not asking for any removal from public view.
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Christmas parties were not instituted as part of some "right-wing" Christian agenda. But their removal (even requiring justification of saying the word) sure does seem to be part of someone's agenda.
You are right they weren't instituted as part of any agenda. They were instituted out of lack of understanding for the minority. Just like Sting has pointed out, majority rule.

And if you call an all encompassing holiday party an agenda move than so be it, I guess the agenda is for everyone to feel welcome or involved. So that some don't have to go home and wonder why their religion means less in this country. Why, just because there's less than them.

I really find it funny that people are getting bent out of shape over this. It's just a move to make schools and offices welcoming to everyone, the party doesn't change, no one's loosing christmas. You'll still have your big mall and greeting card Christmas.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-22-2005, 07:12 PM   #139
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I just said, I'm not asking for any removal from public view.


You are right they weren't instituted as part of any agenda. They were instituted out of lack of understanding for the minority. Just like Sting has pointed out, majority rule.

And if you call an all encompassing holiday party an agenda move than so be it, I guess the agenda is for everyone to feel welcome or involved. So that some don't have to go home and wonder why their religion means less in this country. Why, just because there's less than them.

I really find it funny that people are getting bent out of shape over this. It's just a move to make schools and offices welcoming to everyone, the party doesn't change, no one's loosing christmas. You'll still have your big mall and greeting card Christmas.
Why change anything? Its worked for centuries. No one is being persecuted or being killed because of a "CHRISTMAS PARTY". But as NBC said, the move to change such long standing American cultural traditions does smack of a certain agenda by a particular group. The majority of people in this country should not be forced to swallow a small minority's view on political correctness.

I don't recall anyone deciding not to come to the United States because people there Celebrate Christmas and have "Christmas Parties" at the office and school as opposed to calling it a "Holiday Party". The fact is, whether its ones faith or not, Christmas is a part of American culture and I certainly would not want a culture in another country to change just because it was not in line with my particular religion or lack of one.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 07:23 PM   #140
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:05 PM
But the beauty of America is that it is inherently cultureless. We have probably the only genuinely syncretic culture on the planet. So I do tend to disagree with people who make claims that "Christmas is a part of American culture." Maybe white culture, but that's just one of many cultures that have been in America for the last 225 years.

Do people know that gift giving in America used to occur on New Years Eve? The department stores successfully convinced the public to change their habits in the late 19th century. American culture is fluid, by design.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 07:31 PM   #141
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


Why change anything?
Right, change is evil, especially when the status quo is in your favor.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-22-2005, 07:43 PM   #142
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
But the beauty of America is that it is inherently cultureless. We have probably the only genuinely syncretic culture on the planet. So I do tend to disagree with people who make claims that "Christmas is a part of American culture." Maybe white culture, but that's just one of many cultures that have been in America for the last 225 years.

Do people know that gift giving in America used to occur on New Years Eve? The department stores successfully convinced the public to change their habits in the late 19th century. American culture is fluid, by design.

Melon
Most people from other countries have told me that America does have culture, most of it borrowed yes, but there is a culture there. I don't know how anyone could claim that Christmas is not a part of American culture. Some people would certainly like to make it that way. Christmas is just as much apart of American culture as Hogmanay is apart of Scotish Culture, although its true that Hogmanay is exclusive to Scotish Culture where Christmas is apart of many cultures around the world.

Just look at how many Santa's, Christmas Trees, Nativity set ups, and other things associated with Christmas you will see this Christmas and then tell yourself that Christmas is not apart of American Culture.

Yes, most people celebrate it and experience it. Typically any anthropoligist would consider such level of activity by so many people to indeed be apart of the culture. Oh, there are plenty of people who are not "White" who will be celebrating Christmas this year and I'll be celebrating Christmas with several of them. The troops in Iraq will also be celebrating Christmas as well. I have not heard any non-Christian troops complain about dining halls doing something special on December 25 the past couple of years in Iraq.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 07:44 PM   #143
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Right, change is evil, especially when the status quo is in your favor.
Right, the status quo, Christmas, the Christmas party, is EVIL.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 08:14 PM   #144
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


Right, the status quo, Christmas, the Christmas party, is EVIL.
No. Christmas is great. Have Christmas on the sidewalks, on TV, Church, your house, malls, wherever you want because all the places you have choice as to if you are going to be there or not. But in school where you don't have a choice, don't force the children of other faiths feel inferior or excluded. I'm sorry that a hard concept for you to understand, but it happens.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-22-2005, 08:31 PM   #145
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


No. Christmas is great. Have Christmas on the sidewalks, on TV, Church, your house, malls, wherever you want because all the places you have choice as to if you are going to be there or not. But in school where you don't have a choice, don't force the children of other faiths feel inferior or excluded. I'm sorry that a hard concept for you to understand, but it happens.
Ah no, I never heard of anyone feeling inferior because of a "Christmas Party". Thats the way its been in this country for centuries. Its part of the culture, why is that so difficult for you to understand. To what degree do we have to go to make every single minority feel "included". This is insane. It was not problem 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, and is really only and issue now because a small minority has decided to whine about it. Anyone can celebrate at a christmas party, you don't have to be a Christian to enjoy it. Hell, some Muslims in Palestine attend Christmas mass every year.

Plus, your not really helping childern deal with their insecurities by refering to a party as a holiday party rather than a Christmas party.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 08:33 PM   #146
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by randhail
Because Christmas is the name of the holiday, therefore it should be called a Christmas party.
This is, in fact, more or less my own view, and I have already stated it in this thread. What I find disingenuous and troubling is the way the "no name change" camp keeps disingenuously dancing back and forth between the very different arguments that 1)calling it "holiday" is a well-intentioned, but ultimately rather empty gesture whose omission would harm no one (which I quite agree with) and 2)calling it "holiday" amounts to a sinister, bigoted persecution of "Christians" by some vengeful minority or another, which I did--and do--find laughably absurd.

It is also quite disingenuous how several of you keep conveniently sliding back and forth between the--again--very different positions that (1) Christmas is a holiday celebrating the birth of Christ (whence dubbing it "holiday" amounts to an affront to believing Christians), and (2) Christmas has been bastardized into a hollow family shopping fest devoid of any religious content anyway, so really there is no "excuse" for everyone not to embrace it. To which my response as a Jew is: not my fault, and not my problem, either. I will continue to regard it as a holy day for Christians (and therefore to not celebrate it), and will leave it up to believing Christians to decide if they wish to distance themselves from the Santa'n'shopping fest that (in my opininon insultingly) goes by their Savior's name. If I were a Christian, I would want THAT holiday (which I have nothing against, either) renamed!

And I'd still like to hear nb's answer to the question below.

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Really? If you lived in Dearborn and all this actually transpired, you'd have no problem sending your kids to school on Christmas and Easter, with a full day of classes on Good Friday?

A "bastardized" holiday, such as Christmas has become in Western culture--and I sympathize fully with devout Christians who lament this--is NOT the same thing as a secular holiday. I have yet to meet an observant Jew who puts up a Christmas tree and sings carols at home. This is not, of course, because we hate or reject Christians, but because the recognition of December 25th as a holiday is simply not part of our religious heritage.

Personally, I have never had a huge problem with the fact that my religion is completely ignored by our national holiday calendar. While I appreciate the good intentions behind euphemisms like "holiday party" and singing the dreidl song etc., they don't make up for the fact that my kids still have to go to school during Chanukah anyway. I will admit that having to work on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in our calendar (which I try very hard to avoid, but sometimes cannot) does sometimes set my teeth on edge. But I am not whining "bigotry" or "religious persecution" about it. Nor do I pitch a fit when kosher meals are not provided at public functions. Nor did my brother boo-hoo and moan about the lack of accommodations for Jewish observance when he was stationed at various bases while in the Air Force.
Finally, I would suggest we all consider cooling our heels and letting this senselessly overblown argument drop before we ruin our prospects for having a well-meaning and sincere "Happy Holidays" thread here in FYM come December. Will we really need to descend to the level of having a bunch of separate greeting threads for the tiny handful of posters who don't celebrate "Christmas," lest anyone have to put up with the PC indignity of wishing anyone "Happy Chanukah" or whatever in a thread "meant" for Christians?

~ Peace All.
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 09:30 PM   #147
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling 4. A-Wanderer: A Jews a religion or a race? (Yes, this is a trick question. ) [/B]
Different situation we are not talking about Judaism, we are talking about Islam. What I said about Islam holds true for most other religions.

Is any of the following a race?
Christianity
Hinduism
Buddhism
Paganism

Islam is just like most other religions, in that it is not synonymous with race.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 10:16 PM   #148
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
But the beauty of America is that it is inherently cultureless. We have probably the only genuinely syncretic culture on the planet. So I do tend to disagree with people who make claims that "Christmas is a part of American culture." Maybe white culture, but that's just one of many cultures that have been in America for the last 225 years.
You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You disagree that Christmas is part of American culture, but then state that it is one of many. Ask yourself, how did these secular Christmas parties get started in school? The evil Pat Robertson? Or long standing traditions embedded in our culture?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 10:43 PM   #149
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

This is, in fact, more or less my own view, and I have already stated it in this thread. What I find disingenuous and troubling is the way the "no name change" camp keeps disingenuously dancing back and forth between the very different arguments that 1)calling it "holiday" is a well-intentioned, but ultimately rather empty gesture whose omission would harm no one (which I quite agree with) and 2)calling it "holiday" amounts to a sinister, bigoted persecution of "Christians" by some vengeful minority or another, which I did--and do--find laughably absurd.

It is also quite disingenuous how several of you keep conveniently sliding back and forth between the--again--very different positions that (1) Christmas is a holiday celebrating the birth of Christ (whence dubbing it "holiday" amounts to an affront to believing Christians), and (2) Christmas has been bastardized into a hollow family shopping fest devoid of any religious content anyway, so really there is no "excuse" for everyone not to embrace it. To which my response as a Jew is: not my fault, and not my problem, either. I will continue to regard it as a holy day for Christians (and therefore to not celebrate it), and will leave it up to believing Christians to decide if they wish to distance themselves from the Santa'n'shopping fest that (in my opininon insultingly) goes by their Savior's name. If I were a Christian, I would want THAT holiday (which I have nothing against, either) renamed!

And I'd still like to hear nb's answer to the question below.



Finally, I would suggest we all consider cooling our heels and letting this senselessly overblown argument drop before we ruin our prospects for having a well-meaning and sincere "Happy Holidays" thread here in FYM come December. Will we really need to descend to the level of having a bunch of separate greeting threads for the tiny handful of posters who don't celebrate "Christmas," lest anyone have to put up with the PC indignity of wishing anyone "Happy Chanukah" or whatever in a thread "meant" for Christians?

~ Peace All.
There is no need to suddenly call a Christmas Party a Holiday Party unless of course you agree with that "vengeful minority" obssessed with removing anything that is even remotely christian from every school and building in the country. If its been called Christmas for the past 200 years, there is no need to change the name. No one died or suffered because it was a Christmas Party rather than a Holiday Party.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-22-2005, 11:08 PM   #150
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
There is no need to suddenly call a Christmas Party a Holiday Party unless of course you agree with that "vengeful minority" obssessed with removing anything that is even remotely christian from every school and building in the country.
Is it truly then your belief that teachers invoking ideals like inclusiveness, interreligious harmony, and considerateness--however misguidedly--as their reasoning for doing so are lying anti-Christian bigots, who are in truth motivated by nothing more than a desire to spit in Christianity's face? Please tell me it is not. I know you are a conservative fellow STING, but that strikes me as an extraordinarily harsh and uncharitable position to take on the matter. Are you really that deeply suspicious of their intentions?

BTW, there is nothing "sudden" about such practices, either. When I went to public school in not-so-librul-or-irreligious Itta Bena, Mississippi in the 70s, we often had such (in my view) well-intended and fun-for-all, albeit tokenish "holiday" parties, complete with the dreidl song and cardboard menorah decorations, as well as a Christmas tree, manger and all the mistletoe stuff. And I never heard a Christian student (which was virtually everyone except me; it's a Baptist stronghold) complain.
__________________

__________________
yolland is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com