The Village Went Too Far?

[nbcrusader]

Judge Lifts Order for Cancer Treatment

A judge ruled Tuesday that a 16-year-old cancer patient who has refused conventional medical treatment does not have to report to a hospital as previously ordered and scheduled a trial to settle the dispute.

Starchild Abraham Cherrix, who is battling Hodgkin's disease, a cancer of the lymphatic system, refused a second round of chemotherapy when he learned early this year that the cancer had returned.

Abraham chose to instead go on a sugar-free, organic diet and take herbal supplements under the supervision of a clinic in Mexico.

A social worker asked a juvenile court judge to require the teen to continue conventional treatment, and the judge on Friday ordered Abraham to report to a hospital Tuesday. Accomack County Circuit Court Judge Glen A. Tyler set aside that order.

When should the government take over the roll from the parent, and when does it go to far? What principles can we derive from this case?

 

[bonoman]

I think this is a very inportant question. But very complex.

It seems to me by reading this small clip that the 16 year old tryed chemo but it failed. He then made a decision to try an alternate form of cancer therapy. To me this case is clear cut, he has the right to choose his treatment. And the fact that he is 16 years old is a contributing factor.

Now for the murkier side of the subject.

If this were a 8 year old that was born into a religous cult (well to me all religions are cults, but for this arguement the cult like those people that took those pills with their Nikes on so they could go to the meteor, I'm rambling) and they were to say that they're doctrine was that nobody was allowed to have any medical treatment and this 8yr old could be saved with a short trip to the doctor, then I say you must take the power of choice from the parents. This 8yr old does not know any different, does not have the capacity to research other methods or cures. This IMO constitutes neglect and child abuse.

I would say the biggest factor is that at a certain age, and 16 is a pretty mature age (relative to 8 yrs old), we must weigh their maturity againist that of which their parents imposed beliefs.

 

[verte76]

I think he should be allowed to choose his form of treatment. Conventional cancer treatment isn't for everyone. It causes unpleasant side-effects like nausea, hair loss, and sterilization for men. In fact, my neighbor is a Hodgkin's survivor. The only way he and his wife were able to get children was by adopting. He's Lebanese and the Lebanese people put alot of emphasis on having children. Sixteen is old enough to choose. If he were an eight-year old kid, I'd feel differently because he'd be too young to choose.

 

[Angela Harlem]

As side issue then, the age of 16 is too old to be considered a minor still? This kid has joint custody by social services and his parents. Obviously legally he is not considered an adult, yet if the general view is he is old enough to make his own decision, then surely he is capable of taking care of himself? If he is capable of making such a life decision regarding treatment of a terminal cancer, then surely he is old enough to go out into the real world on his own without such a juvenile problem as custody? I digress. This is the grey area for me. I'm not fully convinced he is adult enough. Our emotional age changes dramatically from year to year during that period of late teens into early adulthood.

In all, I dont think turning away from any possible chance at curing a vicious cancer is a smart choice. Without placing my views on this kid, I just simply wonder if he and his (apparent) fractured family have fully investigated the decision.

 

[bonoman]

I agree with you Angela, 16 is sort of the grey area, but for me his attempt at chemo once shows me that he has tried one method and might have decided to go another way.

Also, as a side, I have always be of the opinion that 16 should be the legal voting age and the age at which you are an adult.

 

[Angela Harlem]

^True, that. I didn't actually think of him already having tried chemo, too. I know some say it is as horrid as the illness from some cancers. I'm betting it's agressive, in it's return. I'm still for fighting it with absolutely everything available. That includes both eastern and western medicine.

 

[Rono]

I think that a 16 year old child that is fighting cancer is growing up very fast. I think he will be able to make his own choice on the kind of theraphy he wants.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Lets hope that placebo works.

 

[Tania]

I think that a 16 year old child that is fighting cancer is growing up very fast. I think he will be able to make his own choice on the kind of theraphy he wants.

 

[yolland]

Apparently this is the treatment method and clinic (in Tijuana) Cherrix wishes to use. From what I've read, this judge's decision is temporary and pending further hearings involving people from this clinic testifying, etc.--i.e., it's still up in the air whether he'll in fact ultimately be forced to undergo more chemo or not.

I really don't know much about past precedents in this sort of case, perhaps nb or someone could fill me in. A 16 year old is still a minor under US law, and I thought it was generally the case that the state does indeed intervene in loco parentis in instances where, for example, a Christian Scientist child's parents attempt to refuse medical treatment in favor of faith healing. I'm not sure why this case should be treated any differently? Perhaps this stuff is generally decided on a state-by-state/case-by-case basis?

As far as the advisability of allowing Cherrix and his parents to choose this course of treatment, I just don't know. From what I understand, Hodgkin's disease actually has one of the better cure rates among cancers (when treated medically). Yes, I've no doubt the chemo is grueling, and I can only imagine how devastating it must be to be contemplating repeating it all over again after such a short time and with so little result. But to choose a treatment course with only anecdotal claims supporting it, and not very impressive anecdotal claims at that...I can't imagine choosing a course like this for my (minor) child. Like Angela said, combine them if you like (and if interactions are not a concern), but considering the statistical likelihood that the one might work versus the other...

That said, I suppose you do have to take into account the potential negative health effects of subjecting him first to the trauma of seizing custody from his parents, then forcibly subjecting him to chemo when he is determined not to repeat it.

 

[nathan1977]

I thought this thread was about how "The Village" ruined M. Night Shyamalan's career (and further, hosed "Lady in the Water"'s box office performance). How disappointing to learn that I was wrong.

 

[U2democrat]

It's been all over the news here in Virginia, quite interesting. Whatever happens, I hope the treatment works for him...he's also very well spoken for a 16 year old, his parents are letting him talk to the cameras instead of taking over themselves.

 

[nbcrusader]

I think this case hits a weak spot along a number of different principles by which we live, address medical situations, raise children, etc.

A Minor’s Right to make Medical Decisions. As a minor, he is unable to provide informed consent to determine his own course of medical treatment. In the United States, a minor cannot receive an aspirin from a school nurse unless the parents consent (though, a girl can get an abortion without her parents knowing ). In this situation, we are dealing with a minor’s ability to opt-out of medical treatment, instead of consenting to treatment. Should there be a different standard? Should a minor be able to opt out if the parents consent to the medical treatment?

Free Exercise of Religion. Medical treatment of minors can be influenced by religious belief of the parents. Is there much difference between denying standard medical care in favor of prayer or herbal supplements? At what point does the State step in to say the free exercise of religion (be it through organized religion or free form spiritual practices) places an unacceptable risk on the health of a minor? Should this analysis be reserved for medical treatment, potential risk of physical harm, or potential risk of any harm?

General Power of Social Services. When we find a child locked in a cage who is rescued by Social Services, we say “Thank God” they were there. What if the threat of harm was not so obvious, or imminent? It does not take much effort for a social services worker to shift a burden of proof – forcing the parent to prove they are acting in a correct manner.

 

[verte76]

This alternative form of treatment doesn't have an impressive track record, that's for sure. I can understand why they want him to go through with the chemo, it's more dependable. This is a tough call.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Hoxsey actually claims a very high success rate and if I were diagnosed with cancer I would absolutely look into it. I never cease to be amazed by how skeptical people are of alternative health. Knowing someone who was given the "get your affairs in order" speech and then cured himself of Stage V cancer, along with my own repeated negative experiences with the medical establishment vs. my very excellent experiences with herbs and supplements and other alternative paths, I wouldn't take the chemo/radiation route for anything and it would break my heart to have chemo/radiation forced on someone who was underaged when there are so many incredible options.

Since Dr. Weil is a popular, credible voice in the alternative health community, here's what he has to say about it:

The Hoxsey Formula: Developed in the 1800s by a farmer who claimed that herbs cured his horse’s cancer, the Hoxsey formula was popularized as a human cancer treatment by the farmer’s great-grandson, Harry Hoxsey, a Dallas entrepreneur. The formula consists of the regular use of a liquid herbal tonic along with dietary changes; topical pastes containing bloodroot and other compounds are also sometimes applied to external cancers. Despite anecdotal reports of success, the medical establishment labeled Hoxsey a quack, forcing him and his nurse Mildred Nelson to move their clinic to Tijuana, Mexico. Today the clinic operates under the direction of Nelson’s sister, and still claims high success rates.

The evidence: The Hoxsey formula hasn’t been formally studied. However, lab and animal studies suggest that many of the herbs in the tonic (such as red clover, burdock root, cascara, and prickly ash bark) do have anticancer properties, and conventional doctors have even used a paste identical to Hoxsey’s to successfully remove skin cancers. I’m intrigued by the Hoxsey formula, and hope that if research confirms its effectiveness, it will someday be more widely used.

To learn more: See When Healing Becomes a Crime by Kenny Ausubel (Healing Arts Press, 2000).

In terms of whether a 16 year old can make such a decision, I tend to agree with bonoman. Just because a 16 year old may not be equipped to fully take care of himself out in the real world doesn't mean that he isn't capable of doing a lot of research and understanding his cancer and the options available to him. Some 16 year olds I know are quite amazing and know more about many things than many adults I know. It isn't a black and white issue and my bias towards alternative healing methods no doubt colors my perception on this. I certainly think he should be allowed to speak for himself and to be heard, and opinions from alternative as well as traditional medical experts should all be weighed in.

 

[verte76]

I have used herbs and various homeopathic remedies myself. Of course members of the medical profession are going to have a biased, prejudicial attitude towards alternative treatments. They're the people who are being rebelled against. I have a physician for a father, and from associating with him and his colleagues I know that doctors tend to have massive egos along with their compassion and other good traits. I'm sure the guy is wondering why they want him to do chemo when the last episode of this treatment apparently didn't work.

 

[bonoman]

Also, I would also like to point out that: if a 16 yr old was to commit a crime (murder, rape, assault) they could, by the determination of the courts be tried as an adult.

Why not the same principle for a case such as this>

 

[yolland]

Hoxsey actually claims a very high success rate and if I were diagnosed with cancer I would absolutely look into it.

What are you basing this assessment on? I ask because none of the sites I looked at before selecting the link I did, including some alternative cancer treatment research centers, could provide anything beyond anecdotal support for Hoxsey cures. At the risk of being redundant, that link summarized what, so far as I could find, is the research consensus on Hoxsey to date:

Only 2 human studies of the Hoxsey herbal treatment have been published. One was published in a pamphlet provided by the Tijuana clinic and simply contains a description of 9 patients who received the treatment. It concluded that the treatment is effective, even though most of the Hoxsey-treated patients received standard cancer treatment in addition to the Hoxsey treatment. The other study published in the Journal of Naturopathic Medicine involved 39 people with various types of cancer who took the Hoxsey herbal treatment. Ten patients died after an average of 15 months and 23 never completed the study. Only 6 patients were disease-free after 48 months.

The National Advisory Cancer Council studied many of Hoxsey’s patient records and learned that most of the patients had never had biopsies, so that there was no confirmation that they actually had cancer. The National Cancer Institute investigated 400 patients who were reported as cured by Hoxsey. Patients or their families were interviewed, and all records were carefully reviewed. These patients fell into 3 groups: those who had been treated, but didn’t actually have cancer; those who had received successful conventional cancer treatment before seeing Hoxsey; and those who had cancer and had died of it, or were still alive with evidence of cancer. Out of the 400 cases, not one case of a Hoxsey cure could be documented.

Considering that, again so far as I can tell, Hodgkin's has an 85% cure rate with conventional treatment, I just find it very hard to imagine endorsing the Hoxsey route in preference to that, if it were my child. 85 is not 100 and the side effects of the chemo are indeed awful, but with odds like that...

Also, I don't see where the Weil quote goes beyond what the link I posted already acknowledges, i.e., that some individual components commonly used in the various Hoxsey preparations are indeed known to have anticancer properties. Lots of natural medicines have anticancer properties, that is not in dispute, but that's not the same thing as a likely cure for active cancer of whatever type. Weil says, "I’m intrigued by the Hoxsey formula, and hope that if research confirms its effectiveness, it will someday be more widely used." "If research confirms"--I guess that's the part that gives me pause.

I never cease to be amazed by how skeptical people are of alternative health.

I think maybe you're reading a bit too much into my armchair doubts about Hoxsey as a treatment for Hodgkin's. I am not in any general way skeptical of alternative medicine, far from it; our family doctor is an integrative medicine specialist, I've posted in here before about my own experiences using light boards and St. John's Wort for depression with very good results. We keep a couple of Dr. Weil's remedy books on our bookshelf here at home and refer to them often. But where life-threatening but potentially curable illnesses are concerned, IMHO, it's very important to look at statistical probabilities based on solidly documented research. I would not seek to deny another adult the right to make their own decisions on the matter, and my misgivings about the significance of Cherrix's age in all this are mostly the same as nb's--i.e., how can we achieve a consistent legal standard for such cases? or can we at all?

Good health is in no small part simply a blessing, no matter how well one does their part to cultivate and preserve it. Unfortunately an awful lot of people have bad luck despite apparently exemplary lifestyles, and at that point you do have to put your faith in and surrender your own control of the process somewhat to someone whose judgment you trust, be it an herbalist or an allopath. But these decisions are seldom cut-and-dried and there is a lot of patronizing and overwrought propaganda coming from both sides to contend with, very little of which seems to have the individual patient's best interests in mind.

 

[joyfulgirl]

What are you basing this assessment on? I ask because none of the sites I looked at before selecting the link I did, including some alternative cancer treatment research centers, could provide anything beyond anecdotal support for Hoxsey cures. At the risk of being redundant, that link summarized what, so far as I could find, is the research consensus on Hoxsey to date:

There is a book, a movie, and lots of information out there on Hoxsey. I've been familiar with it for a long time and was even briefly acquainted with the author of the book When Healing Becomes a Crime and found him extremely credible on the subject. I also know people personally who have benefited from the treatments. The AMA has been invited to investigate the Hoxsey clinic's detailed records of thousands of patients but have repeatedly refused to do so.

So yes, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence along with the findings of a team of independent doctors who did a thorough investigation of the clinic's records and found sufficient evidence for further study. There was also a study by the NIH (National Institute of Health) a few years ago that appeared in medical journals and again found sufficient evidence to support further study. There is no clinical data to support Hoxey's claims because the AMA refuses to do a real clinical study.

While most people quickly dismiss good anecdotal evidence, and while I certainly understand why, for me it has been invaluable over the years in many different ways. Anecdotal evidence led to a cure for my cat's kidney disease when the vet said there was no hope; anecdotal evidence saved my uterus when 6 of the best doctors in this area said there was no hope; anecdotal evidence has someone I know with HIV off the meds, with an undetectable viral load and in very good health without the dangerous side effects of the meds; anecdotal evidence led my friend to be cured of stage V cancer; detailed anecdotal evidence from doctors who treated patients during the 1918 pandemic maintains that 99% of patients treated with homeopathy were cured while 1 in 3 treated conventionally died (when confronted with a question about this at a recent flu pandemic summit members of WHO were silent--homeopathy is still not taken seriously, incredibly); anecdotal evidence led me to cure myself of a very weird and extremely painful throat issue many years ago when 5 doctors said they'd never seen anything like it and wanted to do a biopsy but because I didn't have insurance I decided to go with the folk remedy I'd read about using 2 ingredients in my kitchen cabinet--apple cider vinegar and cayenne pepper. The sore that had been there and growing for 2 months disappeared in less than a week. That was my first experience with alternative healing methods and made a deep impression. And I have a hundred such stories so I am not so quick to dismiss good anecdotal evidence (nor do I embrace it without some kind of direct experience). I do not think that anecdotal evidence alone says anything more than investigate further, do a clinical study, but that seems not to happen when the anecdotal evidence comes from outside the traditional medical establishment.

Also, I don't see where the Weil quote goes beyond what the link I posted already acknowledges, i.e., that some individual components commonly used in the various Hoxsey preparations are indeed known to have anticancer properties. Lots of natural medicines have anticancer properties, that is not in dispute, but that's not the same thing as a likely cure for active cancer of whatever type. Weil says, "I’m intrigued by the Hoxsey formula, and hope that if research confirms its effectiveness, it will someday be more widely used." "If research confirms"--I guess that's the part that gives me pause.

I included the quote to show that not everyone thinks Hoxsey was a quack. Of course research should confirm but will it ever even be done?

Good health is in no small part simply a blessing, no matter how well one does their part to cultivate and preserve it. Unfortunately an awful lot of people have bad luck despite apparently exemplary lifestyles, and at that point you do have to put your faith in and surrender your own control of the process somewhat to someone whose judgment you trust, be it an herbalist or an allopath. But these decisions are seldom cut-and-dried and there is a lot of patronizing and overwrought propaganda coming from both sides to contend with, very little of which seems to have the individual patient's best interests in mind.

I absolutely agree.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Given our understanding of chemistry homeopathy cannot work, there is simply no active portion left to function. If homeopathy does in fact work then it may be a revolution on several scientific fronts - if the knowledge is that revolutionary and fantastic and can be proven then somebody could make a real name for themselves by proving it with a well designed and repeatable experiment, the fact that furthur study is a conclusion of past investigations does not prove it's effects and given the nature of the claims the burden of evidence rests on showing positive results.

Anecdotal stories are not valid avenues of evidence, firstly they are self-selecting since nobody cares to talk about the times when these "treatments" fail to work, secondly they do not in themselves answer how these people got better - if they would have gotten better anyway, how many people got better etc.

If you want to test homeopathic medicine do a study with true believers and hard skeptics and see if there is any difference between recovery rates, the placebo effect is a fascinating and relevent issue.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Given our understanding of chemistry homeopathy cannot work, there is simply no active portion left to function.

It works for me again and again and again and again.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Teen wins court battle to stop chemo
'It's everything we fought for, ' boy, 16, says of settlement
Wednesday, August 16, 2006

ACCOMAC, Virginia (AP) -- A 16-year-old cancer patient's legal fight ended in victory Wednesday when his family's attorneys and social services officials reached an agreement that would allow him to forgo chemotherapy.

At the start of what was scheduled to be a two-day hearing, Circuit Judge Glen A. Tyler announced that both sides had reached a consent decree, which Tyler approved.

Under the decree, Starchild Abraham Cherrix, who is battling Hodgkin's disease, will be treated by an oncologist of his choice who is board-certified in radiation therapy and interested in alternative treatments.

The family must provide the court updates on Abraham's treatment and condition every three months until he's cured or turns 18.

"It's all over. It's everything we fought for, everything we wanted to ever have, we've won. We got our freedom back," Abraham said outside the courthouse after the hearing.

Tyler emphasized that the decree states that the parents weren't medically neglectful.

Abraham said that he saw the doctor last week, and the doctor assured him that his cancer is curable. The teen said he'll continue following an alternative herbal treatment called the Hoxsey method as well as his doctor's treatment plan. The regimen won't include chemotherapy, but radiation is a possibility, he said.

After the short hearing, the judge looked at Abraham and said, "God bless you, Mr. Cherrix."

Last summer, the teen was diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease, a cancer of the lymphatic system considered very treatable in its early stages. He was so debilitated by three months of chemotherapy that he declined a second, more intensive round that doctors recommended early this year.

He since has been using the Hoxsey method, the sale of which was banned in the United States in 1960.

After Abraham chose to go on the sugar-free, organic diet and take liquid herbal supplements under the supervision of a Mexican clinic, a social worker asked a juvenile court judge to intervene to protect the teen's health. Last month, the judge found Abraham's parents neglectful and ordered Abraham to report to a hospital for treatment as doctors deem necessary.

Lawyers for the family appealed, and an Accomack County Circuit Court judge suspended that order and scheduled a new trial to settle the dispute. The judge scheduled the trial for two days but has indicated he would like to finish in one, said John Stepanovich, a lawyer for the parents.

Abraham is still on the Hoxsey method, but Stepanovich stressed that the family hasn't ruled out other possible treatments, such as immunotherapy or radiation treatment in small doses.

According to the American Cancer Society, there is no scientific evidence that Hoxsey is effective in treating cancer in people. The herbal treatment is illegal in the United States but can be obtained through clinics in Mexico, and some U.S. naturopathic practitioners use adapted versions of the formula.