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Old 07-26-2006, 09:36 PM   #16
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I have used herbs and various homeopathic remedies myself. Of course members of the medical profession are going to have a biased, prejudicial attitude towards alternative treatments. They're the people who are being rebelled against. I have a physician for a father, and from associating with him and his colleagues I know that doctors tend to have massive egos along with their compassion and other good traits. I'm sure the guy is wondering why they want him to do chemo when the last episode of this treatment apparently didn't work.
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Old 07-26-2006, 11:35 PM   #17
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Also, I would also like to point out that: if a 16 yr old was to commit a crime (murder, rape, assault) they could, by the determination of the courts be tried as an adult.

Why not the same principle for a case such as this>
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Hoxsey actually claims a very high success rate and if I were diagnosed with cancer I would absolutely look into it.
What are you basing this assessment on? I ask because none of the sites I looked at before selecting the link I did, including some alternative cancer treatment research centers, could provide anything beyond anecdotal support for Hoxsey cures. At the risk of being redundant, that link summarized what, so far as I could find, is the research consensus on Hoxsey to date:
Quote:
Only 2 human studies of the Hoxsey herbal treatment have been published. One was published in a pamphlet provided by the Tijuana clinic and simply contains a description of 9 patients who received the treatment. It concluded that the treatment is effective, even though most of the Hoxsey-treated patients received standard cancer treatment in addition to the Hoxsey treatment. The other study published in the Journal of Naturopathic Medicine involved 39 people with various types of cancer who took the Hoxsey herbal treatment. Ten patients died after an average of 15 months and 23 never completed the study. Only 6 patients were disease-free after 48 months.

The National Advisory Cancer Council studied many of Hoxsey’s patient records and learned that most of the patients had never had biopsies, so that there was no confirmation that they actually had cancer. The National Cancer Institute investigated 400 patients who were reported as cured by Hoxsey. Patients or their families were interviewed, and all records were carefully reviewed. These patients fell into 3 groups: those who had been treated, but didn’t actually have cancer; those who had received successful conventional cancer treatment before seeing Hoxsey; and those who had cancer and had died of it, or were still alive with evidence of cancer. Out of the 400 cases, not one case of a Hoxsey cure could be documented.
Considering that, again so far as I can tell, Hodgkin's has an 85% cure rate with conventional treatment, I just find it very hard to imagine endorsing the Hoxsey route in preference to that, if it were my child. 85 is not 100 and the side effects of the chemo are indeed awful, but with odds like that...

Also, I don't see where the Weil quote goes beyond what the link I posted already acknowledges, i.e., that some individual components commonly used in the various Hoxsey preparations are indeed known to have anticancer properties. Lots of natural medicines have anticancer properties, that is not in dispute, but that's not the same thing as a likely cure for active cancer of whatever type. Weil says, "I’m intrigued by the Hoxsey formula, and hope that if research confirms its effectiveness, it will someday be more widely used." "If research confirms"--I guess that's the part that gives me pause.
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I never cease to be amazed by how skeptical people are of alternative health.
I think maybe you're reading a bit too much into my armchair doubts about Hoxsey as a treatment for Hodgkin's. I am not in any general way skeptical of alternative medicine, far from it; our family doctor is an integrative medicine specialist, I've posted in here before about my own experiences using light boards and St. John's Wort for depression with very good results. We keep a couple of Dr. Weil's remedy books on our bookshelf here at home and refer to them often. But where life-threatening but potentially curable illnesses are concerned, IMHO, it's very important to look at statistical probabilities based on solidly documented research. I would not seek to deny another adult the right to make their own decisions on the matter, and my misgivings about the significance of Cherrix's age in all this are mostly the same as nb's--i.e., how can we achieve a consistent legal standard for such cases? or can we at all?

Good health is in no small part simply a blessing, no matter how well one does their part to cultivate and preserve it. Unfortunately an awful lot of people have bad luck despite apparently exemplary lifestyles, and at that point you do have to put your faith in and surrender your own control of the process somewhat to someone whose judgment you trust, be it an herbalist or an allopath. But these decisions are seldom cut-and-dried and there is a lot of patronizing and overwrought propaganda coming from both sides to contend with, very little of which seems to have the individual patient's best interests in mind.
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Old 07-27-2006, 08:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

What are you basing this assessment on? I ask because none of the sites I looked at before selecting the link I did, including some alternative cancer treatment research centers, could provide anything beyond anecdotal support for Hoxsey cures. At the risk of being redundant, that link summarized what, so far as I could find, is the research consensus on Hoxsey to date:

There is a book, a movie, and lots of information out there on Hoxsey. I've been familiar with it for a long time and was even briefly acquainted with the author of the book When Healing Becomes a Crime and found him extremely credible on the subject. I also know people personally who have benefited from the treatments. The AMA has been invited to investigate the Hoxsey clinic's detailed records of thousands of patients but have repeatedly refused to do so.

So yes, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence along with the findings of a team of independent doctors who did a thorough investigation of the clinic's records and found sufficient evidence for further study. There was also a study by the NIH (National Institute of Health) a few years ago that appeared in medical journals and again found sufficient evidence to support further study. There is no clinical data to support Hoxey's claims because the AMA refuses to do a real clinical study.

While most people quickly dismiss good anecdotal evidence, and while I certainly understand why, for me it has been invaluable over the years in many different ways. Anecdotal evidence led to a cure for my cat's kidney disease when the vet said there was no hope; anecdotal evidence saved my uterus when 6 of the best doctors in this area said there was no hope; anecdotal evidence has someone I know with HIV off the meds, with an undetectable viral load and in very good health without the dangerous side effects of the meds; anecdotal evidence led my friend to be cured of stage V cancer; detailed anecdotal evidence from doctors who treated patients during the 1918 pandemic maintains that 99% of patients treated with homeopathy were cured while 1 in 3 treated conventionally died (when confronted with a question about this at a recent flu pandemic summit members of WHO were silent--homeopathy is still not taken seriously, incredibly); anecdotal evidence led me to cure myself of a very weird and extremely painful throat issue many years ago when 5 doctors said they'd never seen anything like it and wanted to do a biopsy but because I didn't have insurance I decided to go with the folk remedy I'd read about using 2 ingredients in my kitchen cabinet--apple cider vinegar and cayenne pepper. The sore that had been there and growing for 2 months disappeared in less than a week. That was my first experience with alternative healing methods and made a deep impression. And I have a hundred such stories so I am not so quick to dismiss good anecdotal evidence (nor do I embrace it without some kind of direct experience). I do not think that anecdotal evidence alone says anything more than investigate further, do a clinical study, but that seems not to happen when the anecdotal evidence comes from outside the traditional medical establishment.


Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Also, I don't see where the Weil quote goes beyond what the link I posted already acknowledges, i.e., that some individual components commonly used in the various Hoxsey preparations are indeed known to have anticancer properties. Lots of natural medicines have anticancer properties, that is not in dispute, but that's not the same thing as a likely cure for active cancer of whatever type. Weil says, "I’m intrigued by the Hoxsey formula, and hope that if research confirms its effectiveness, it will someday be more widely used." "If research confirms"--I guess that's the part that gives me pause.


I included the quote to show that not everyone thinks Hoxsey was a quack. Of course research should confirm but will it ever even be done?

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
I think maybe you're reading a bit too much into my armchair doubts about Hoxsey as a treatment for Hodgkin's.
Sorry, that comment was in no way directed toward you; I've read enough from you in other threads to know you are quite open to alternative treatments. It was just a general grumpy statement about the public perception of alternative health because I'm passionate about this issue and work closely with many alternative health practictioners who are friends and so I hear their own stories about their patients and what works but is usually dismissed.

Needless to say, doctors hate me, lol.

Anyway, I am certainly no expert on Hoxsey or any other health related issue--I'm just another person with all her anecdotal stories--and I don't care about convincing anyone of anything. I just wish they'd do a real indepth clinical study and let the data speak for itself one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Good health is in no small part simply a blessing, no matter how well one does their part to cultivate and preserve it. Unfortunately an awful lot of people have bad luck despite apparently exemplary lifestyles, and at that point you do have to put your faith in and surrender your own control of the process somewhat to someone whose judgment you trust, be it an herbalist or an allopath. But these decisions are seldom cut-and-dried and there is a lot of patronizing and overwrought propaganda coming from both sides to contend with, very little of which seems to have the individual patient's best interests in mind.


I absolutely agree.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:25 AM   #20
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Given our understanding of chemistry homeopathy cannot work, there is simply no active portion left to function. If homeopathy does in fact work then it may be a revolution on several scientific fronts - if the knowledge is that revolutionary and fantastic and can be proven then somebody could make a real name for themselves by proving it with a well designed and repeatable experiment, the fact that furthur study is a conclusion of past investigations does not prove it's effects and given the nature of the claims the burden of evidence rests on showing positive results.

Anecdotal stories are not valid avenues of evidence, firstly they are self-selecting since nobody cares to talk about the times when these "treatments" fail to work, secondly they do not in themselves answer how these people got better - if they would have gotten better anyway, how many people got better etc.

If you want to test homeopathic medicine do a study with true believers and hard skeptics and see if there is any difference between recovery rates, the placebo effect is a fascinating and relevent issue.
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Old 08-16-2006, 01:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Given our understanding of chemistry homeopathy cannot work, there is simply no active portion left to function.
It works for me again and again and again and again.
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Old 08-16-2006, 01:30 PM   #22
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Teen wins court battle to stop chemo
'It's everything we fought for, ' boy, 16, says of settlement
Wednesday, August 16, 2006

ACCOMAC, Virginia (AP) -- A 16-year-old cancer patient's legal fight ended in victory Wednesday when his family's attorneys and social services officials reached an agreement that would allow him to forgo chemotherapy.

At the start of what was scheduled to be a two-day hearing, Circuit Judge Glen A. Tyler announced that both sides had reached a consent decree, which Tyler approved.

Under the decree, Starchild Abraham Cherrix, who is battling Hodgkin's disease, will be treated by an oncologist of his choice who is board-certified in radiation therapy and interested in alternative treatments.

The family must provide the court updates on Abraham's treatment and condition every three months until he's cured or turns 18.

"It's all over. It's everything we fought for, everything we wanted to ever have, we've won. We got our freedom back," Abraham said outside the courthouse after the hearing.

Tyler emphasized that the decree states that the parents weren't medically neglectful.

Abraham said that he saw the doctor last week, and the doctor assured him that his cancer is curable. The teen said he'll continue following an alternative herbal treatment called the Hoxsey method as well as his doctor's treatment plan. The regimen won't include chemotherapy, but radiation is a possibility, he said.

After the short hearing, the judge looked at Abraham and said, "God bless you, Mr. Cherrix."

Last summer, the teen was diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease, a cancer of the lymphatic system considered very treatable in its early stages. He was so debilitated by three months of chemotherapy that he declined a second, more intensive round that doctors recommended early this year.

He since has been using the Hoxsey method, the sale of which was banned in the United States in 1960.

After Abraham chose to go on the sugar-free, organic diet and take liquid herbal supplements under the supervision of a Mexican clinic, a social worker asked a juvenile court judge to intervene to protect the teen's health. Last month, the judge found Abraham's parents neglectful and ordered Abraham to report to a hospital for treatment as doctors deem necessary.

Lawyers for the family appealed, and an Accomack County Circuit Court judge suspended that order and scheduled a new trial to settle the dispute. The judge scheduled the trial for two days but has indicated he would like to finish in one, said John Stepanovich, a lawyer for the parents.

Abraham is still on the Hoxsey method, but Stepanovich stressed that the family hasn't ruled out other possible treatments, such as immunotherapy or radiation treatment in small doses.

According to the American Cancer Society, there is no scientific evidence that Hoxsey is effective in treating cancer in people. The herbal treatment is illegal in the United States but can be obtained through clinics in Mexico, and some U.S. naturopathic practitioners use adapted versions of the formula.
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