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Old 09-13-2001, 02:01 PM   #1
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the us wanted to play this game

i want to make one thing clear. i fully sympathize with everyone who is suffering right now. it is horrible, no doubt. this pissiness on my behalf is an attack on the capitol system, and how the system sacrificed their own people for the sake of $$$.

im sorry, but a an outside looking in, this all seems terrible, and terribly obvious...

the u.s. has their hands everywhere in the middle east. they have been held unaccountable for THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of deaths for THEIR own good. for their own interest. all in the name of capitolism. how many people in iraq suffer not only from the stupidety of hussien but from trade restrictions placed on them by the u.s.? do you really know?? the numbers are astounding. war child, amnesty international, theyll all tell you this.

the middle east has oil, and we need it. so what does the us do? they stick their nose in it. they decide everything about what goes on out there. does the media show that part of all this? hardly. very little at all.
if violence is ever tolerated, then i can see why, and only IF the arabians did this to america. that does NOT mean that i think what they did was good, or excusable in any way. america though, had it coming. its for the constant torment they have placed in the middle east.

i thought the religous right were mostly christian? or claimed to be? alright then. what would jesus do? what does the BIBLE have to say about revenge? sure it says an eye for an eye, but that is outdated. what would jesus really do? i believe he is a pacifist.

heres what i would do:

1. id get my ass out of the middle east and let them rule THEIR countries. how would the us like it if there were other countries in the us like a dirty sock?

2. id find out who did this.

3. once that is discovered, it would be time to open lines of communication. from there it would be time to resolve the issues.

VIOLENCE NEVER EVER SOLVED ANYTHING.

this post is not meant to offend anyone. just another opinion on why the us might have been attacked.

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Old 09-13-2001, 08:18 PM   #2
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I am sorry, but I completely disagree with what has been said here. Completely and unconditionally disagree in every single way.

Before you say anything, I am not American, nor am I completely ignorant of the situation in the Middle East. You can't accuse me of not knowing the other side of the argument as it were, since I have lived in Bahrain, Qater, Saudi Arabia AND Kuwait for seven years and have an idea of the culture and politics.

Allow me to break the ice; the US has had their hands in the Middle East for a damn good reason, besides making money out of Kuwait, its also there to stop some madman from nuking that part of the world. And might I also add that its not JUST the USA involved in all of this, but the best part of Europe and NATO. Since when has it just been America's campaign? I am sick to death of people pointing out how arrogant and 'bossy' America is in its position as a super-power and acting like a police-state, to live under the blanket of protection America provides and then complaining about it is both hypocritical and unwarranted. America protects the world, albeit for money and capitalism as you put it, but it does. It makes countries run by madmen (Sadam Hussein anyone?) weak and tries to prevent atrocities like the other day from happening. It does so, why? Because it doesn't feel so dandy in leaving it in the hands of a bunch of lunatic fundamentalists who like to live according to the Quran. I am sorry for saying this, but living in the Middle East and seeing how certain Governments are run and organised, I feel safer if its backed up by some other state that isnt as unstable.

Of course, there ARE innocent people who suffer, but I assure you, for every person that is innocent, there are probably five others who LOVE Sadam Hussein and would support him every way if they could. I have always been a firm believer that a country chooses and deserves its leaders. Yes, Nazi Germany deserved Hitler, Fascist Spain deserved Franco (as my Republican Spanish grandfather pointed out, 'the country that doesn't fight hard enough to destroy its tyrant leader deserves such a leader'). Iraq deserves Sadam Hussein, and its as simple as that.

And as for your comment on the Media, which is the only one I will agree on, I have seen other types of coverage that does show how America and others have ruined Iraq, but everytime I see a child crying and a family in poverty on the television, I think about WHY they are suffering and WHY their suffering is needed. The needs of the many DO outweigh the needs of the few.

I detest the comment that America 'had it coming'. What a load of nonsense. America didn't wake up one day and decide to pick on innocent countries that were kindly minding their own business, it defended other countries (for a price, I won't forget) to avoid Islamic fundamentalists and other nutcases from not only jeopardising the Middle East, but the rest of the world.

I don't believe in 'an eye for an eye'. Gandhi said that an eye for an eye leads to a blind world, but I do believe in protection. I believe in making one or two countries suffer for their mistakes instead of five and six suffer innocently.

1. You'd get your ass out of the Middle East would you? Well isn't that wonderful, you've just jeopardised the entire world.

2. The FBI HAVE discovered some of the identities of the hijackers.

3. You sound like a diplomat, with your words of resolve. Look, the time has come for violence and thats all there is to it. What does violence achieve, you ask, well, how about this; the end of two World Wars.

Violence did and will continue to solve certain issues. Combating fundamentalist wackos is certainly one of those.
What words of resolve would you give those kind of people?

Ant.
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Old 09-13-2001, 08:28 PM   #3
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Thank God for these lousy library computers because I just finished the most angry and direct post to you, "deathbear", but the damned puter fouled up and I lost the message.

You're full of shit.

You wanna talk simple? How's that for "simple".

How dare you? You put a smug "told ya so" title on this thread and then tell us all how all this couldve been avoided... While tens of thousands of human beings lay buried... in bloody, grotesque pieces... in NY??


"They got what they deserved"?????

Your simplistic ego-driven garbage is laughable!! Bin Laden would just LOVE to "communicate" with you, "deathbear".

He'd like you dead. He'd like me dead and every other American. Oh wait, are you even an American, "deathbear"??

I am Satan to Bin Laden. NO comprimise. NO negotiation. America must die, for "Allah" wants it that way. Bin Laden wants nothing but what he sees as Islamic Law.

Of course this country, may of it's troubles, and its intervention in the rest of the world is money driven. Of course its bad!! You are NO genius by stating this, "deathbear".
So.. YOU go to Exxon/Mobile and "tell them to get out of the Middle East".

Go... Try it. I'm sure they'll listen to YOU.
You seem to know so much.
If your intelligence is as big as your obvious ego, well then your a freakin genius!!!

People are dead, bozo!
People are in pain!
People are frightened!

And you have all the answers.

Oh wait... I'm sorry. I almost missed your "disclaimer".

Oooooh! I see! You don't mean to "offend" anyone!??

But... but, what if you DO!!!? What if people are really hurting, and along comes a wise-guy with a "armchair quarterback" mentality and tells them a bunch of shit they dont need to hear!!??

Does that disclaimer wash your hands??

I don't think so!

THINK man.

Think before you type. Your words and thoughts have consequences. Your ego is NOT that important!

What else can you tell us, "deathbear"?????
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Old 09-13-2001, 08:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
I am sorry, but I completely disagree with what has been said here. Completely and unconditionally disagree in every single way.

Before you say anything, I am not American, nor am I completely ignorant of the situation in the Middle East. You can't accuse me of not knowing the other side of the argument as it were, since I have lived in Bahrain, Qater, Saudi Arabia AND Kuwait for seven years and have an idea of the culture and politics.

Allow me to break the ice; the US has had their hands in the Middle East for a damn good reason, besides making money out of Kuwait, its also there to stop some madman from nuking that part of the world. And might I also add that its not JUST the USA involved in all of this, but the best part of Europe and NATO. Since when has it just been America's campaign? I am sick to death of people pointing out how arrogant and 'bossy' America is in its position as a super-power and acting like a police-state, to live under the blanket of protection America provides and then complaining about it is both hypocritical and unwarranted. America protects the world, albeit for money and capitalism as you put it, but it does. It makes countries run by madmen (Sadam Hussein anyone?) weak and tries to prevent atrocities like the other day from happening. It does so, why? Because it doesn't feel so dandy in leaving it in the hands of a bunch of lunatic fundamentalists who like to live according to the Quran. I am sorry for saying this, but living in the Middle East and seeing how certain Governments are run and organised, I feel safer if its backed up by some other state that isnt as unstable.

Of course, there ARE innocent people who suffer, but I assure you, for every person that is innocent, there are probably five others who LOVE Sadam Hussein and would support him every way if they could. I have always been a firm believer that a country chooses and deserves its leaders. Yes, Nazi Germany deserved Hitler, Fascist Spain deserved Franco (as my Republican Spanish grandfather pointed out, 'the country that doesn't fight hard enough to destroy its tyrant leader deserves such a leader'). Iraq deserves Sadam Hussein, and its as simple as that.

And as for your comment on the Media, which is the only one I will agree on, I have seen other types of coverage that does show how America and others have ruined Iraq, but everytime I see a child crying and a family in poverty on the television, I think about WHY they are suffering and WHY their suffering is needed. The needs of the many DO outweigh the needs of the few.

I detest the comment that America 'had it coming'. What a load of nonsense. America didn't wake up one day and decide to pick on innocent countries that were kindly minding their own business, it defended other countries (for a price, I won't forget) to avoid Islamic fundamentalists and other nutcases from not only jeopardising the Middle East, but the rest of the world.

I don't believe in 'an eye for an eye'. Gandhi said that an eye for an eye leads to a blind world, but I do believe in protection. I believe in making one or two countries suffer for their mistakes instead of five and six suffer innocently.

1. You'd get your ass out of the Middle East would you? Well isn't that wonderful, you've just jeopardised the entire world.

2. The FBI HAVE discovered some of the identities of the hijackers.

3. You sound like a diplomat, with your words of resolve. Look, the time has come for violence and thats all there is to it. What does violence achieve, you ask, well, how about this; the end of two World Wars.

Violence did and will continue to solve certain issues. Combating fundamentalist wackos is certainly one of those.
What words of resolve would you give those kind of people?

Ant.
You said it!

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Old 09-13-2001, 08:41 PM   #5
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God bless you Anthony.

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Old 09-13-2001, 08:50 PM   #6
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Seriously, deathbear, I am disappointed in this post from you. It seems that you are jumping onto the slowly moving, politically-correct badnwagon that is headed in the wrong direction.

Look at all of the people with whom I rarely agree on political issues (doctorwho, Anthony, Trash Can) who are calling for action against those responsible for this act which WAS NOT JUSTIFIED.

In another forum, you blamed this on our involvments in Colombia and Iraq, and our frequent bombing campaigns in those areas (whatever).

Do you know the background of our involvments in these areas?

Colombia: to strike at violent drug operations which have murdered legitimate farmers and taken their lands.

Iraq: economics aside, Iraq INVADED the sovereign nation of Kuwait and occupied it. the TOOK NEWBORN BABIES OUT OF INCUBATORS in hospital wards. Their next target was Saudi Arabia. WHY DO YOU ACCEPT SADAM HUSSEIN'S DESIRE TO CONQUER SOVEREIGN NATIONS?

And WHERE did we ram civilian passenger jets full of passengers into office buildings full of civilians??? WHERE? NOTHING WE HAVE DONE IN THE SITUATIONS YOU MENTIONED COMPARES!

Violence never solved anything? It defeated Hitler. Were you against that as well?

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Old 09-13-2001, 09:24 PM   #7
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first of all, i never said "i told you so." you can stop that now. rather, all i was pointing out was what i believe THEY are thinking! you must beleive that they trully had a reason, in their minds, for this action. this was not done out of the blue. there are things that the u.s. does that pisses them off.

THATS what im saying.

you people bring up ww2. very very good point to bring up against me, for i do not know what should have been done. i could be as idealistic as i want to, but that probably wouldnt have changed a single thing. hitler, from what i gather, and you will agree, was a madman to say the least. he would not listen to reason, so all my wonderful idealism could be thrown out the window. i admit, you totally have me there.

Anthony and Trash Can: you people have every right to be pissed. i was just simply stating things the way i felt the arabians were coming from. i do think everyone has blood on their hands, and i will not change my mind about that. killing innocent people, like what happened on tuesday is horrendous in every imaginable way. but i was getting at WHY DID THEY FEEL THE NEED TO ACT THE WAY THEY DID. i was trying to get an introspective into what they were getting at.

perhaps my "lack of a spine" as you people might want to call it, is THE reason why people like me arent in power. then be happy for it. i want justice. i just want it to all end peacefully. perhaps i am out of my mind, seriously without ANY sarcasm, for thinking that this can be done otherwise.

i also stick to violence being a terrible terrible thing. and i dont believe it solves anything. however, one must seek justice. how does one ACHIEVE justice? you people decide, im not from your country, i didnt bomb it, and i dont want anything to do with it. to me, its a very scary situation that i dont believe i have the answers for. this whole situation, as you will agree, sucks. i wish it would all go away.



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Old 09-13-2001, 09:57 PM   #8
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I am very sorry if I misunderstood you, deathbear, in any way and consequently started anything hostile; I think it is clear that anyone who LOVES Democracy should be unified. I hope we are all 'ONE' as Bono would say, though clearly not the same.

I'm sorry for misunderstaning, I thought YOU had those feelings and were of those opinions, I think we all know WHY some Arabs or Islamic fundamentalists would feel it justified, its pretty obvious.

Personally I hate it when they bring out these Islamic experts on the BBC (I am British) who talk about 'America should review their foreign policies. America should think about how they treat the Middle East... AMERICA should think about how they are so unjust...'
BOLLOCKS to that, mate. I think it is painfully clear that certain Middle Eastern countries and THEIR shit policies need careful reviewing. You bastard Islamic Fundamentalist Kings of Bastardisation!
I will pray for you, you mindless wastes of space.I will pray for God to give you brains.

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Old 09-13-2001, 10:05 PM   #9
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anthony thanks, i trully dont have a gift for trully pointing out what i really want to say. thanks for looking deep enough to look past my blunders and understanding where im coming from.

this whole tragedy brings out the widest and strangest of emotions that ive ever seen. its to be expected. its tough...

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Old 09-13-2001, 10:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
Look, the time has come for violence and thats all there is to it. What does violence achieve, you ask, well, how about this; the end of two World Wars.
Violence achieved the beginning of two World Wars- by definition, peace marked the end of them.
The perpetrators of this gruesome attack must be caught and punished in the most severe manner possible, but this in no way is an inevitable start on the road to war.

Quote:
I believe in making one or two countries suffer for their mistakes instead of five and six suffer innocently.
So why must the innocent citizens of those "one or two countries" suffer for the crimes of a minority within their midst? Bin Laden is responsible, not the people of Afghanistan.

The situation is extremely precarious, and I don't profess to have any answers. My only wish is that the U.S. act boldly, but with the care, caution, and thoughtfulness that is required by the circumstances.

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Old 09-13-2001, 10:28 PM   #11
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Indeed, violence did begin the two world wars; but it also ended it. What, you think dropping two nuclear bombs and killing millions isn't violent? Sometimes violence begets peace, its sad but alas, a sad fact.

You forget the other elements in the equation, and you forget that these are Islamic fundamentalists you're talking about. There ARE implications for a war, because thought they don't OFFICIALLY condone it, a lot of Arab countries do support such fundamentalism. Now, when you have governments backing terrorism, who the hell needs a full-scale war?

'Bin Laden is responsible, not the people of Afghanistan.'

He is responsible. He also has a lot of supporters, and a lot of people who would rather see him succeed than the USA, they will have to suffer in the end. Its a terrible and tragic fact, but unless you want MORE innocents murdered and MORE American civilians who DON'T support fundamentalists butchered then you have to make sacrifices.

Ant.

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Old 09-14-2001, 12:26 AM   #12
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I cant believe all of this stuff, a lot of you are sounding just as evil and scary as those fundamenatalists.........America in no way at all was deserved of what happened, but in reality thousands of people have died at the hands of Americans in the past.....

anyone remember the Iran Contra affair in the 80s, and all of the political games that were played out during the Iran Iraq war and the puppeteering that was played out with Hussein, past American administrations have manipulated various events for their benefit within the Middle East, and the ones that I have mentioned briefly are merely the tip........thousands of people die everday in bloodshed, but because this is in the US, other countries within the world are supposed to support the Us's action, if this is a military response and then live in fear, because for once the bloodshed is on the footstep of freedom, I will never support any war, military conflict and will never support an Australian government that does so aswell, and I will have pity for those people who are so shallow as to not believe and see that violence and war are and never will be the answer.............
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Old 09-14-2001, 12:48 AM   #13
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I'm not even Australian, but I shudder to think what would have happened to Australia had we not responded to Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

Continue living in a peaceful utopia, OzAurora. You are lucky that your views are not an issue to the men and women of the Australian military that protects your own freedom and peace.

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Old 09-14-2001, 02:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:

the TOOK NEWBORN BABIES OUT OF INCUBATORS in hospital wards.
I'm sorry U2Bama, but this has been shown to have been an outright lie; a massive PR campaign to gather support for a US attack on Iraq.
http://detnews.com/2001/entertainmen...d07-196693.htm
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Old 09-14-2001, 02:05 AM   #15
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Some people dont understand what they are dealing with here. This is not a country that you can sit down and have disscussions with. You cant sign a peace treaty with these people. They will strike again. Period!

They tried again today to strike. A man with a fake pilots ID was arrested and four other men were arrested trying to borde a flight from NY to LA. One way. With Cash.

If a military strike is not taken these acts will happen again and again. These people dont follow the rules of war. They want not only to hurt the US but to warn to whole world. This is certainly not only a American issue. This could happen to your Londons, Berlins, Moscows, Sydneys, Bejings, Torontos, Dublins, Paris's. Dont kid yourselves this isnt only a hate for America but a hate for Catholism and Democracy and NATO, UN, and any allies with US.

And to comment on the post of "deathbear".

Deathbear i know you are a Canadian. This is as related and as close to home as it can get. I believ you reside in Ontario. This could have happened in Toronto. Canada has backed the US on every issue they have ever particated on. If this happened to us would you question why? And imply because we have our hands all over issues in the Middle East?

The middle east is for the most part a war zone. New york is not. It is a city filled with innocent cillvilans. When strikes were taken on Iraq and others it was in a time of war. Both sides were in war and had knowledge of it. This is not the case. It changes everything.

The US has helped so many people and countries world wide. When things happen in the world and it deserves a response from a nation or nations the US arnt always the first to step up. They are expected to step up and are encouraged by other allies. The US's involvement in many issues arnt always voluntary but are force for they know no other country is willing to go in and do the dirty work that gives them this bad name.

I would like to say that the US or anyother country ever deserves a attack of this nature. The US's success and failures in other international incidents are always turned againist them. We all must understand this country is one of the greatest leaders, humanitarim, and protectors of the world and without a country like this this world whould be much much worse off!!!

Gob bless America!

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