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Old 06-26-2002, 05:54 PM   #31
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Re: The US SUCKS because...

Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis

We have many more enemies than we think, waiting to storm the castle(s).
Why?

Isn't that question more important to put some energy in to find and answer to and from there work on preventing you from being attacked or threatened. I feel like you are starting in the wrong end of the line by increasing the military protection. It's like giving cure for the symptoms and not the disease, sooner or later the disease will kill you anyway.....

As someone else said, when the military is out patroling on the streets, something else is taken away from you.

And for you who think nothing has been done when it comes to security at the borders, let me tell you it has!! I felt like a terrorist when I crossed the US border a couple of weeks ago, I almost felt humiliated! After almost a cross examination (word?) I didn't felt any excitment at all entering the country any longer.

Just my 2 cents.....

*waiting to get flamed*
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:57 PM   #32
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Re: Re: Re: The US SUCKS because...

Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis


To assume is ignorant. Please withdraw the republican bias... this isnt a thread for political diabtribe. As a result, I will not respond to most of your biased commentary.
Not a bias there boss
I have knowledge I cannot or would not post in/on forum(s), email, internet, etc.

When I say assume, then state that in fact i am certain, give me some credit. (And forget the fact i ever said i was a dog in this instance)




Quote:
This is NOT true.
We do however apparently have planes over DC and NY, but that's it.
Ummm, so I am imagining things every day, when I see these things take off all day long. I know what they are, they come and go, I see them. Constantly.
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Old 06-26-2002, 09:45 PM   #33
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Elvis:

I am in no way affiliated with the military, but I can assure you that the 117th Refueling Wing in Birmingham, Alabama is involved in daily refueling operations of AWACS and other defense aircraft flying over the U.S.

Are you proposing we convert to some sort of military state where we have tanks and other armaments rolling down the streets at lunch hour? The only time I see anything like that here is when we have a rare Southern snowstorm and the National Guard drives through the neighborhood in HumVs assisting the elderly. I do not want something like mid-1980s Eastern Europe, nor do I think we need it. Just my ignorant opinion though.

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Old 06-26-2002, 11:15 PM   #34
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Bama:

The last I heard, was that the only 24/7 air coverage (w/fighters) was over NYC and DC. If you have other factual information which supports otherwise, I'd love to see/hear/read it....


As stated before.. I think it's pathetic that airport security is pretty much back to the same old thing...

example: less than 2 months ago, I walked through the xray, put my cell phone and palm pilot in the tray. The tray was NOT scanned... and they did NOT make me show them that it worked properly (as intended). And yes, I did this intentionally. They airport screeners were SO concerned with xraying the carry-on bags that they TOTALLY neglected to do more specific searches on the persons. Now if you are unaware, a cell phone or palm pilot or both capable (in size) of being either explosives or detonation devices. As someone else stated... the bags that are going into the luggage compartments of the planes are either not being xrayed/searched at all, or only very few are checked randomly.
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Old 06-26-2002, 11:25 PM   #35
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Honestly, Elvis, I do not know of any domestic regions where they currently have fighter jets randomly flying around, but most regions are within a few short minutes of a fighter jet deployment if needed. The planes flying all over the mainland and offshore are AWACS and other radar/recon equipped aircraft, which would ALERT the nearest fighter squadron (in my case, Montgomery, Alabama) of any problems.

As far as airport security, I fly frequently, and I am personally scanned everytime I go through the terminal gate, and sometimes at my departing gate as well. Perhaps it is my dark complexion (am I being profiled?) but I do feel that they have tightened security. Also, I have seen uniformed military personnel at every airport I have flown through recently.

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Old 06-27-2002, 03:28 AM   #36
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Elvis the fact that they didnt check your palm pilot etc may have been specific to that airport or the fact it was a domestic flight (assuming it was). Or yeah it could have been lax security. When my other half went overseas at the start of the year he had his laptop literally pulled apart. They scanned the battery, switched it on (why I have no idea, I guess to make sure it was a real laptop - I dont know) they opened his bags there and then and sifted through everything thoroughly. They even opened up an unopened bag of fun sized chocolate bars I had put in there for his flight. He says the security was something to behold.
But yes, the only way to make sure is to put in place the most stringent of security measures. Unfortunately, I agree it isn't likely to happen in a way that can not guarantee as such, but allow us to say "we did everything we could".
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Old 06-27-2002, 03:38 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis
Bama:

The last I heard, was that the only 24/7 air coverage (w/fighters) was over NYC and DC. If you have other factual information which supports otherwise, I'd love to see/hear/read it....


As stated before.. I think it's pathetic that airport security is pretty much back to the same old thing...

example: less than 2 months ago, I walked through the xray, put my cell phone and palm pilot in the tray. The tray was NOT scanned... and they did NOT make me show them that it worked properly (as intended). And yes, I did this intentionally. They airport screeners were SO concerned with xraying the carry-on bags that they TOTALLY neglected to do more specific searches on the persons. Now if you are unaware, a cell phone or palm pilot or both capable (in size) of being either explosives or detonation devices. As someone else stated... the bags that are going into the luggage compartments of the planes are either not being xrayed/searched at all, or only very few are checked randomly.
Man.
Sheesh.
EVERYTIME I go thru they make me show them my cell ph works, my pager works ect..then I tell em- "Look Im a Republican PLUS Iam also a friend Of Bono's".
After that- its usually smooth sailing..
Late
Peace
Out
DB9

a small price to pay for living in a such a great country.
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Old 06-27-2002, 04:25 AM   #38
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OK, a few points...

1. Elvis, you are calling for a "fortified castle" type approach to protect the US, which is physically imposiible. Do you have any idea what that would cost?? during the 90's, the US was shutting down military bases left and right to cut defense spending to use that money for healthcare, education, etc.... Even if we had not cut military spending, it would devistate the american economy to spend billions of dollars to defend in that way.

2. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Many people (myself included) often assume that we are all observing and all knowing when it comes to political, national, international and national security matters. We are not. I trust that our government is doing all that it can to defend us but it is impossible to defend against every possible attack.

3. Realistically speaking, the threat against us is pretty insignificant to the existence of our country. We are not fighting a war in which we are worried about being invaded and conquered by our enemy. We are fighting terrorists, whose main objecttion to us, is a result of what they perscieve to be a bias toward Israel. We are not in danger as a nation of being destroyed. It may seem harsh, but it is the reality.

4. Elvis, our military and it's technology is most certainly not outdated. Where on earth do you get this impression from??? I may get in trouble for saying this, but wasn't it you who was asking people to read non-fiction, to get a better understanding of the topic and the world around them in general when posting in these forums??? Our military is by far technologically superior to any other in the world. This is not even a debatable fact.

5. Finally!!! Elvis, it most certainly is not unamerican to question our leaders and their judgement. It is a right in this country to do so, and that is what thousands of men have died to protect. Our freedom, freedom of all things. I may not agree with what you think, but I would gladly die to protect your right to say it.

Just my 2 cents...
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Old 06-27-2002, 12:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

a small price to pay for living in a such a great country.

That is the most intelligent thing I've seen you say here in the last 24 hrs!

I am willing to endure whatever security is needed to preserve our way of life.... EVEN if that security imposes on our 'way of life'... it's better than the alternative.


Back to the cell and palm: When I was exployed as a dotcommer I often flew every 2-3 weeks for business.. (and this was WAY b4 9/11) as a result I would always expect to have my electronic carry-on items checked.. and would basically have them open and ready for inspection, and even press the buttons to show them things worked.. as I walked through... but the last time I flew, which was from SNA (orange county, ca) to SJC (San Jose, CA) and back... I didn't have either checked. I did notice a few people offered to have them checked, much like I used to, but I decided to see what would happen at both airports if I neglected to volunteer. I was allowed to just pass through both times easily. Infact.. and this is the WORST... at one of the checks I had my cell in my jacket pocket... it made the scanner beep... I took it out, briefly showed the security guy that that's what made it scan, did NOT pass through the gate again, and went on my way.

And I saw NO armed personnel at either airport... although I did in October.

Personally, I think it is foolish for us (americans) to think we're "going to be okay" and sit back and do little to nothing about it.

I've always been one to pay attention to what's around me, and see the 'holes', just out of interest, although I would never exploit anything like that. Go to a public place... a sporting event, a harbor, a movie theater, a downtown area, a large mall, etc.... LOOK around... look at how many exits there are, look at the structue, look at how many people are in a relatively small space... and then realize that in places like Israel, you don't need to even be in a large place like that to be at risk... just you're run of the mill coffee shop, grocery store, or on the street driving.

If you think they (terrorists) won't eventually pull those same stunts here, in the US, you may think I'm paranoid, but I'd think you're very foolish.

Reports that Bin Laden was trying to obtain a small nuclear device... most likely true. Many missing nuclear devices from the old USSR... true. The world was MUCH more safe during the cold war.
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Old 06-27-2002, 12:57 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis



That is the most intelligent thing I've seen you say here in the last 24 hrs!
anything from diamond without a blatant reference to his beverage choice would appear brilliant at this point
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Old 06-27-2002, 01:12 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zooropa
OK, a few points...

1. Elvis, you are calling for a "fortified castle" type approach to protect the US, which is physically imposiible. Do you have any idea what that would cost?? during the 90's, the US was shutting down military bases left and right to cut defense spending to use that money for healthcare, education, etc.... Even if we had not cut military spending, it would devistate the american economy to spend billions of dollars to defend in that way.

Would it not devistate our economy if the largest US shipping port was obliterated? Shit... look at what happens when just UPS goes on strike... lol.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zooropa

2. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Many people (myself included) often assume that we are all observing and all knowing when it comes to political, national, international and national security matters. We are not. I trust that our government is doing all that it can to defend us but it is impossible to defend against every possible attack.
You are telling me to have FAITH in our national security measures? lol. For heaven sake, they crashed a plane into the PENTAGON. I know people (that's as much as I can say) that KNOW more than most... and have little to no faith in our domestic national security measures.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zooropa

3. Realistically speaking, the threat against us is pretty insignificant to the existence of our country. We are not fighting a war in which we are worried about being invaded and conquered by our enemy. We are fighting terrorists, whose main objecttion to us, is a result of what they perscieve to be a bias toward Israel. We are not in danger as a nation of being destroyed. It may seem harsh, but it is the reality.

You're mislead. If you think this is only about our position with Israel, you're dead wrong. We're not in danger??? They took out a chunk of the pentagon, and the WTC.... last time I checked, that was the largest loss of american life on american soil from a foreign enemy.


Quote:
Originally posted by Zooropa

4. Elvis, our military and it's technology is most certainly not outdated. Where on earth do you get this impression from??? I may get in trouble for saying this, but wasn't it you who was asking people to read non-fiction, to get a better understanding of the topic and the world around them in general when posting in these forums??? Our military is by far technologically superior to any other in the world. This is not even a debatable fact.

In small scale, I agree. But the reality is that due to budget cuts/spending, seriously advanced technologies are novelties. I know people in various branches of the armed services - in most cases they are still using equipment that was around during vietnam and korea, and they say that's common. The mislead impression in the US is that we are invincible.... that we have SAMs ready and waiting to defend us... or that there could never have an airstrike on the US or that we could never have a threat of an intercontinental missle attack. I believe it was the same misconceptions that allowed Pearl Harbor to happen.
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Old 06-27-2002, 02:12 PM   #42
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Elvis:

I have to say I agree with a lot of what you said, and I too would like more security in this country. I just have to ask you this,

are you willing to join the military to help bring about this security?

Wehn you grow up in a country like Israel it is mandatory to serve.


No you may have served - I do not know, I know I haven't, but when I find myself complaining about my own safety here I always go back to that question, because to tell you the truth, I would not want to serv, yet respect whole-heartedly those that do.

I dunno - just a thought...
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Old 06-27-2002, 03:29 PM   #43
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I'm quite certain terrorists won't try the same old thingt twice. If they ever attack again, it will very likely not be by air.
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Old 06-27-2002, 03:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy
Elvis:

are you willing to join the military to help bring about this security?

First, let's make something clear.... It's not the military alone that needs to or can bring about the security... many of those decisions are made by our political leaders, not military strategists.

Now to answer your question, I would join an effort to protect our country, although that doesn't leave the military as the only choice. IF a real effort was being made by our gov't in a direction which would actually accomplish true domestic security, I'd be on board. I'd prefer that I use my talents/skills where they could be best used... somewhere on the information technology side of things...

My first 'dotcom' job was working for an Int'l ISP, and I often ended up dealing with local and federal agencies (fbi) in helping them track down hackers, kiddie-porn pushers, etc... I also have been involved in planning the security of several companies, both physical and electronic. For me, using my knowledge and forsight, to protect something is a rush, and rewarding.

Where I currently work... there was a problem with theft, internal and external. It REALLLLLLY annoyed me, people took advantage of the 'system' because they could and there was nothing to detour them from doing so. I PUSHED for the installation of motion activated color cameras throughout the property, as well as motion/heat lights... and a digital recording system, which is also viewable remotely (over the web) - live, and playback. The system is locked up TIGHT, impossible to get into without keys, breaking down doors, locks, and then having to know pass codes..... sounds like I over planned, doesn't it? Now for the result: Since the installation of the new system, there have been no occurrences of theft at the location. The employees know they are being recorded... and possible intruders can easily see the cameras - which on important areas, have multiple cameras from different locations.

So what's my point? hehe... simple. If nothing is done to detour the terrorists, they won't be detoured.

Another example (and perhaps an overly extreme one):
If there were snipers sitting in the freeways signs, you think the lil punks would go out and spray paint all over the freeways? lol.
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Old 06-27-2002, 03:45 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
I'm quite certain terrorists won't try the same old thingt twice. If they ever attack again, it will very likely not be by air.

They blow up people in cars, cafes, and outside public areas... almost daily in Israel. Oh, don't forget the countless air hijackings over the years. You think they have some logic that we understand? These people are willing to wait YEARS until they hit their targets.
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