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Old 06-26-2002, 01:29 PM   #16
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Actually, are military and technologies are far from being outdated as is so often demonstrated. In fact, the USA is so far ahead of other countries that there is a huge gap in military technology between the USA and its NATO Allies in Europe. In the Kosovo Campaign in 1999, the first war to be fought and won by one side without any military losses, the USA performed over 90% of the combat operations because USA aircraft all had combat all weather capability and satellite guided munitions rather than just laser guided munitions effected by smoke and weather. Thats one thing, the list is very long actually.

In Israel's case, their Airforce is on full alert to respond to attacks that can happen in under 2 or 3 minutes from either the Egyptian Airforce, Syrian Airforce, or Jordans Airforce. Their airlines have not been hijacked in over 30 years and its unlikely that a terrorist could sieze a plane and crash it. It is Israel's airport security and other more police like and investigative measures that prevent airborne terrorism in Israel. Like Israel, this is where the USA's focus should be. There should be profiling of Arab/Muslim passengers and all bags whether they be carry on or being put in the cargo hold should be screened on both International and Domestic flights. Right now on Domestic flights, your bags that you do not carry on with you are not screened when their put in the cargo hold!

While I'll agree that the sensitivity of targets in DC merits a fighter patrol there, the focus of our resources should be on preventing the terrorist from boarding and siezing aircraft of all types. That is where Israels focus is on Airborne Terrorism and it has worked solidly for over 30 years! Israel's Airforce in the meantime is more concerned with a surprise attack by its Arab neighbors than terrorist siezing an aircraft which Israely ground security has prevented from happening for over 30 years.
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Old 06-26-2002, 01:44 PM   #17
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The US SUCKS because...
*looks at location* tis okay you say this since you are from the U.S., if you were a foreigner i would of had to get midevil on your butt! (its just one of those things, you know like only black people are supposed to use the "n" word, well, atleast its not as offensive *shrug*)....not that i'm all about U.S. pride or anything, i could care less really.
but yeah, the U.S. has its good points & bad (more good, i'd say).....all in all i wouldn't want to live anywhere else!
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Old 06-26-2002, 01:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
There should be profiling of Arab/Muslim passengers and all bags whether they be carry on or being put in the cargo hold should be screened on both International and Domestic flights. Right now on Domestic flights, your bags that you do not carry on with you are not screened when their put in the cargo hold!
While I do agree with this statement, i don't think it will hold it's own in the future. I do see terrorists recuriting other nationalities to try and get around the racial profiling. As unfortunate as it is, anyone trying to enter the U.S. from an Arab background should be looked into more deeply than others....right now. I do think the INS should do a better job of tracking EVERYONE who comes into our country. If they are overworked then reform should be in the equation.

It really sucks that it appears that nothing has been done since 9-11 in our own country. How's that saying go....Those that forget the past are bound to relive it????, just keeps coming full circle doesn't.
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Old 06-26-2002, 02:18 PM   #19
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Originally posted by STING2
There should be profiling of Arab/Muslim passengers and all bags whether they be carry on or being put in the cargo hold
Are you kidding me ...

Not every person of Arab or Muslim decent is a terrorist and as BEAL correcly pointed out terrorist are recruiting people from other nationalities (ie John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban).

For example, consider the internment of hundreds of throusands of innocent Japaneese citizens in western states during WWII--not to mention the "looks" or harrassment that anyone of Aisian or German decent was subjected to during WWII. Was that right or justified? I think not.

Racial profiling is wrong ... and illeagal. We condemn racial profiling in other countries (ie during the war in the Balkans). As a country, we must be better than that ... people come to this country to escape things like unjustifiable profiling.
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Old 06-26-2002, 02:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by JessicaAnn


Racial profiling is wrong ...
The liberals will now have you believe that your statement is wrong.. As long as you call it 'Nationality of Origin Extra Attention'..

Anyways, The point remains.. morally wrong or right.. what ethnicity or nationality were these terrorists?.. It's just common sense to pay a bit more attention.. Call it what you want, Just be sure to call it smart in the same breath.

I'm reminded of a Ronald Reagan Quote that can apply many places.. 'Trust But Validate'..

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Old 06-26-2002, 02:53 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Lemonite

Anyways, The point remains.. morally wrong or right.. what ethnicity or nationality were these terrorists?.. It's just common sense to pay a bit more attention.. Call it what you want, Just be sure to call it smart in the same breath.

I didn't start "paying more attention" to white males of terrorism after the Oklahoma City bombing or all Harvard grads after Ted Kaczynski started sending mail bombs. I am certainly not going to characterize all Muslims or people of Middle Eastern decent terrorists.
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Old 06-26-2002, 03:10 PM   #22
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Originally posted by JessicaAnn


I didn't start "paying more attention" to white males of terrorism after the Oklahoma City bombing or all Harvard grads after Ted Kaczynski started sending mail bombs. I am certainly not going to characterize all Muslims or people of Middle Eastern decent terrorists.
BOOM!

Great points!


Of course.. this leads me back to the fact that we, the US, needs to WAKE UP, and start acting as if we are in the real world, not Disneyland....

We need to accept the fact that the enemy(s) is invisible for the most part, and can be from within or outside, one of our own or someone foreign.

It's sad to think, but I think some companies understand security (technological or physical) better than our gov't....
Although, I have a friend which does consulting for the gov't. He told me that most of the REALLLLY important labs/computers in this country use 'physical' security... meaning, your access/password into even touch specific room/computer is actually getting by armed military personnel. Yet... coyotes run people accross our borders via land, air, and sea... ALL the time.

In case you hadn't ever noticed, been on the coasts, or been boating in the pacific or atlantic... pretty much anyone on a boat can motor on into our harbours and onto our shores.

Containers on ships at the ports, ie. Los Angeles, aren't checked or 'sniffed' thoroughly... and it wouldn't matter. By the time they are already in port, docked, it could be to late. In reality, they, need to be checked out at sea, and then escorted in. No easy task... as far as resources, money, or technology.
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Old 06-26-2002, 03:14 PM   #23
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Well then by that logic, I should be afraid of everyone no matter what their race, age, religion or national origin ... cause anyone and everyone can commit a crime/act of terrorism.

That's it ... I am going into hiding. (just kidding )
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Old 06-26-2002, 03:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by JessicaAnn
Well then by that logic, I should be afraid of everyone no matter what their race, age, religion or national origin ... cause anyone and everyone can commit a crime/act of terrorism.

That's it ... I am going into hiding. (just kidding )

Unfortunately, call me a pessimist, I think it's going to have to come to that.

Everything we know... IS wrong. Things that we take for granted such as our water and electicity, can for the most part, be disrupted or contaminated. With the way terrorists seem to think, exploiting the common things, our entire way of life is at risk. We can argue about worrying or not worrying about these things, giving into their methods of terror, or being strong and living life.... but the truth is, they feel they have the 'RIGHT' to kill Americans, and no matter what we fear or don't fear, they will continue on with their agenda, unless they are destroyed - totally. Yet... there always seems to be sympathizers of 'evil'... Hitler and the Nazi regime may have been destroyed, but you still see plenty of neo-nazi and related organizations around.

How do you deal with those not willing to play by the 'rules'?
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Old 06-26-2002, 04:48 PM   #25
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Re: The US SUCKS because...

Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis
... well it really doesn't SUCK.

But as a proud citizen of the US, I DO question why our country's intelligence community seems to be in the Ice Age,
Our intelligence community suffered from lack of guidance, from the top down creating general neglect and complacency.

My theory is as closely related to the military. In early 1992, then- president Bush implemented what we referred to as a "drawdown" (not to be confused with an involuntary reduction in force 'RIF'), a voluntary separation for those members to slim the military down a bit. This came with a bonus package and included early retirements. I cannot remember the numbers proposed, but the drawdown was only supposed to last for a few months and had a defined target not to exceed.

Then came the Clinton administration, who for whatever reason extended the program passed the target and beyond, and I mean beyond as it was still going on after I left in 1996! By the time I did leave the army, we were so depleted that our particular unit went on deployments that overlapped each other. Like we might go from Somalia to Haiti to Saudi and never even get back to base. (example)

Therefore, I rightfully assume that some negligance of such proportions took place in the intelligence community. In fact I am certain of it.



Quote:
and why our major cities have not been, and most still arent, protected with military/air force support? Israel, a country the size of California, does have its major cities protected 24/7 with fighters... even during peace times.
We do, now anyways. We have fighters and surveliance aircraft in the air 24/7 now. And I should add that we had European support as we had NATO assisting us here in our skies up until very recently.


Quote:
Are we (the US) so in a little fairytale world that we feel we are safe from the harsh realities of the world? Personally, I think our own lack of paranoia and security will be our greatest enemy. Do we even have surface to air defenses in our major cities? in our CAPITOL? It appears not.
I cannot answer this one. We should be more aware of each other and our surroundings.

Yes we do have surface to air defenses in every major city.

The fact is we have the hardware necessary to stave off any attack. However, the back door was open. And it has been open for a long time.

I wish to point out in support of my theory above that 911 has been planned for years. And there were trial runs for years:

*The first attack in 1993 (wtc),
* assasination attempt Bush #41, 1993
*The barracks in Khobar Towers in 1996
* the US Embassies in 1998
* USS Cole in 2000.

Let's not forget we had knowledge of Bin Laden (FBI Most Wanted List in 1998) and his activities well before 911. We could have had him in Sudan, didn't want him.

Oddly enough, the plan was carried out by Al-Queda before George W. Bush had enough time to undo the damage done to our intelligence community and military. How else could we explain all of this knowledge we had and the events that were carried out without any suitable recourse.

They never tried this during the Reagan-Bush eras. And though they are so brave and not afraid to die, why are the leaders in hiding? Hiding from our technology that is 20 years old but still new to us. Technology that we rely on to save many of the lives of our foot soldiers, ground troops.

And what is the appropriate response to those not willing to play by the rules? Simple, once our intelligence has regained the prowess of the glory days (over 9 years ago), we target them for elimination.

Eliminate them, and those that support them.

Then we can reclaim our own castle.
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by JessicaAnn


I didn't start "paying more attention" to white males of terrorism after the Oklahoma City bombing or all Harvard grads after Ted Kaczynski started sending mail bombs. I am certainly not going to characterize all Muslims or people of Middle Eastern decent terrorists.
Hahah.. I should have expounded more for those who do not want to follow what common sense does tell.. My basis for my statement comes to the forefront when I see a Norwegian Grandmother being frisked, or an 11 year old black girl being escorted off and on .. and off again an airplane..

It is ridiculous to not profile.. I'm also assuming that the usual security checks and that in selecting a specific group of people to pay a bit more attention to that we do not forget about everyone else.. But to think that it's not just Arab Muslims who commit terrorism.. That is a point conceded by everyone.. but it sure as hell is a lot more possible that a 28 year old Arab Muslim that walked right down the jetway is going to try and hijack the airplane, than this 88 year old Norwegian Grandmother.. No one is asking you to 'Characterize' anyone.. please step off your horse.. and wake up to the facts.

Pidalla and Lindh do make for challenges, as they do not fit the profile.. but no one seems to be answering the Fact staring them in the face.. Who Hijacked those Airplanes?.. Arab Muslims.. Saudis.. But wait.. I'll let Atta walk down that jetway so I can stop this 11 year old black girl so I don't hurt anyone's feelings..

I'm waiting for someone to make fun of the completely .. well.. 1980'sish 'BooM' that a poster put in there.. It's just too easy.. Hahaha.. It's like someone taunting someone else by going 'ooohh. dag..' Hahaha.. All while teaching them a bit of common sense.

How about 'Krack'.. 'Whap'.. Hahaha..

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Old 06-26-2002, 05:03 PM   #27
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Re: Re: The US SUCKS because...

Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


Our intelligence community suffered from lack of guidance, from the top down creating general neglect and complacency.

My theory is as closely related to the military. In early 1992, then- president Bush implemented what we referred to as a "drawdown" (not to be confused with an involuntary reduction in force 'RIF'), a voluntary separation for those members to slim the military down a bit. This came with a bonus package and included early retirements. I cannot remember the numbers proposed, but the drawdown was only supposed to last for a few months and had a defined target not to exceed.

Then came the Clinton administration, who for whatever reason extended the program passed the target and beyond, and I mean beyond as it was still going on after I left in 1996! By the time I did leave the army, we were so depleted that our particular unit went on deployments that overlapped each other. Like we might go from Somalia to Haiti to Saudi and never even get back to base. (example)

Therefore, I rightfully assume that some negligance of such proportions took place in the intelligence community. In fact I am certain of it.
To assume is ignorant. Please withdraw the republican bias... this isnt a thread for political diabtribe. As a result, I will not respond to most of your biased commentary.

These problems have been longterm and are NOT attributed to any one political party or administration. Infact, if attributed to any political party, it would be attributed to the childish squabling between the two, and not focusing on the REAL issues of national security, but instead focusing on what politician screwed who, who ripped off who, etc etc.

I'm not in the mood to waste time... like most politicians do.


Quote:
Originally posted by z edge



We do, now anyways. We have fighters and surveliance aircraft in the air 24/7 now. And I should add that we had European support as we had NATO assisting us here in our skies up until very recently.

This is NOT true.
We do however apparently have planes over DC and NY, but that's it.
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:07 PM   #28
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I don't know.....

I've spent time in countries where the military presence has almost become part of the culture. You have soldiers everywhere - patrolling streets, sitting in cafes, posted outside of major buildings or schools.

We unfortunately seem to live in a world where this type of thing may be necessary. But believe me when I tell you that it takes away something from your humanity. You'll find yourself walking through a city one day, no longer surprised by the sight of people walking around with guns, or airplanes flying overhead. And on that day, you lose something of yourself that you might never get back.

Maybe it's naive, but I don't see this as a black or white question.
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:16 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Lemonite


Hahah.. I should have expounded more for those who do not want to follow what common sense does tell.. My basis for my statement comes to the forefront when I see a Norwegian Grandmother being frisked, or an 11 year old black girl being escorted off and on .. and off again an airplane..

It is ridiculous to not profile.. I'm also assuming that the usual security checks and that in selecting a specific group of people to pay a bit more attention to that we do not forget about everyone else.. But to think that it's not just Arab Muslims who commit terrorism.. That is a point conceded by everyone.. but it sure as hell is a lot more possible that a 28 year old Arab Muslim that walked right down the jetway is going to try and hijack the airplane, than this 88 year old Norwegian Grandmother.. No one is asking you to 'Characterize' anyone.. please step off your horse.. and wake up to the facts.

Pidalla and Lindh do make for challenges, as they do not fit the profile.. but no one seems to be answering the Fact staring them in the face.. Who Hijacked those Airplanes?.. Arab Muslims.. Saudis.. But wait.. I'll let Atta walk down that jetway so I can stop this 11 year old black girl so I don't hurt anyone's feelings..
No matter what race or national origin, anyone walking on the jetway that shouldn’t be there should he hauled off … I don’t disagree with that.

However, the hijackers didn’t walk on the jetway … they walked on board like any other individual would.

That doesn’t change the fact that racial profiling is illegal.

How do you know hijackers won’t start corrupting 83 year old Norwegian grandmothers … it would be the perfect cover? (That was partially sarcastic). But now that we know non-Arabs are being recruited into terrorist organizations, who is to say that in time, they will be the ones hijacking planes (who would suspect a nice 28 year old white man from the Midwest would hijack a plane)?
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:24 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by JessicaAnn




How do you know hijackers won’t start corrupting 83 year old Norwegian grandmothers … it would be the perfect cover? (That was partially sarcastic). But now that we know non-Arabs are being recruited into terrorist organizations, who is to say that in time, they will be the ones hijacking planes (who would suspect a nice 28 year old white man from the Midwest would hijack a plane)?
Did you read my post?.. I, as well as many other supporters of profiling, never say to stop all other security checks and just Check Arabs.. That is a ridiculous assumption or conclusion to draw.. I haven't the time to continue..

But.. I just also stated above that Pidalla and Lindh do provide challenges, but the fact still remains the same that the large large majority of Al Queda members are Arabs.. ALL the Hijackers were Arabs, Do with that what you will.. I just hope you're not working the check in counter at my next flight.

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