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Old 07-17-2002, 05:11 AM   #31
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Quoting Bubba:

I think so: I think economic freedom (capitalism, the only "-ism" that occurs on its own) is why we're doing so well: competition, economic rewards for offering the best product at the lowest price. The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law).


At any rate, I believe I've thoroughly discredited the notion - implied or outright stated - that the United States is nothing more than a giant, bloated consumer of goods. We are also a great producer of goods, feeding much of the rest of the world, serving as one of this planet's great breadbaskets.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, I say so, Bubba; the States are great producers of goods - and great producers of lots of crap, too. I wouldnīt have thought of food in the first place, more of weaponry f.e., but fine, you got a point there (and remember that I dig REAL American cars).

Anyway, the gulf between the United States - OR Europe - and the Third World is an unequal "distribution" of wealth.

The difference between the U.S. and Europe may be one of economic freedom/ laws (the European Unionīs just trying to catch up), but the difference to Third World States - no way.

Are we stealing? Yes, constantly. In a kind of reversed Robin Hood manner: steal from the poor, give it to the rich ones.

Just admit it, it doesnīt make you or me a bad person, we donīt direct the price of the bananas or whatever. First of all, America was stolen (remember the Indians, who believed that land belongs to every being and is not buyable?), and Europe build up big part of its wealth with stolen wealth and resources from its colonies.
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Old 07-17-2002, 05:24 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


And really, we all know I don't care about what goes on outside my country except for my bombs

Z-
No, we only know that you think photos of babies with guns are wonderful.

Being one of the NICE guys, I may ask: Did I misinterprete your post (maybe you just thought that the baby and therefore the photo is wonderful and you just didnīt see the gun)?
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Old 07-17-2002, 08:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


China has the fastest growing economy in the world, in fact it's expected to overtake the United States as the largest economy in the world within the next ten to twenty years.

Well, China also has four times the population of the US.
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:09 PM   #34
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I thought that Japan had the fastest growing economy...
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:13 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by kariatari
I thought that Japan had the fastest growing economy...
Err, not since the Asian financial crisis of the late 90s. The last I heard they were still in recession perhaps even economic depression.
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
China has the fastest growing economy in the world, in fact it's expected to overtake the United States as the largest economy in the world within the next ten to twenty years.[/b]
From the CIA factbook:

"In late 1978 the Chinese leadership began moving the economy from a sluggish Soviet-style centrally planned economy to a more market-oriented system. Whereas the system operates within a political framework of strict Communist control, the economic influence of non-state managers and enterprises has been steadily increasing. The authorities have switched to a system of household responsibility in agriculture in place of the old collectivization, increased the authority of local officials and plant managers in industry, permitted a wide variety of small-scale enterprise in services and light manufacturing, and opened the economy to increased foreign trade and investment. The result has been a quadrupling of GDP since 1978. "

My hypothesis is that economic freedom is why the United States and Japan are so successful. As a counterargument, you present China, the "fastest growing economy in the world."

But the reason its economy is growing is economic reforms, reforms that increased economic freedom.

My point is still made.

Quote:
For the US to serve as "one of this planet's great breadbaskets" it would have to export a significant amount of what it produces, correct? And yet the United States imports far more than it exports, which is what the accumulated external debt of the US is $2.3 trillion [1] (compare that to the external debt of all developing countries added together - $2.5 trillion [2]. Also compare the $20 billion annually the US pays to service that debt to the $300 billion developing countries pay.)

If the US is the richest country in the world (and I don't dispute that it is) then why does it owe so much money?

Sources:
[1]IMF handbook of International Financial Statistics, November 2001
[2]The Economist, Febuary 2002
Your argument is fallacious: you're saying we have a large trade deficit (which I readily grant), therefore we don't feed the rest of the world.

It's very possible that we have a large trade deficit overall DESPITE the fact that we have a trade surplus in agricultural products. In fact, that appears to be the case.

From Oregon State University's [url=http://govinfo.kerr.orst.edu/impexp.html]Government Information Sharing Project[url], the amount of kilograms exported and imported in 1998:

The first quantity is exports; the second is imports (i.e., "foreign exports").


DURUM WHEAT SEED FOR SOWING
Exports: 1,354,856
Imports: 0

WHEAT AND MESLIN SEED FOR SOWING (EXCEPT DURUM)
95,233,255
0

OATS SEED FOR SOWING
1,678,254
22,059

CORN (MAIZE), OTHER THAN YELLOW CORN, SEED, NESOI
84,153,005
1,547,938

POPCORN, UNPOPPED, EXCEPT SEED
99,445,346
19,537

RICE IN THE HUSK (PADDY OR ROUGH)
1,744,390,589
239,263

RICE, BASMATI, HUSKED (BROWN)
3,243,012
0


I could, LITERALLY, go on and on.

Like I said, BREADBASKET OF THE WORLD.
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Yes, I say so, Bubba; the States are great producers of goods - and great producers of lots of crap, too. I wouldnīt have thought of food in the first place, more of weaponry f.e., but fine, you got a point there (and remember that I dig REAL American cars).
Whether you considered it or not, we do produce and export a HELL of a lot of food.

I will grant that we also spend a lot building up our military, but it would be foolish to decrease military spending in this very dangerous world, and the reality is, we are probably underfunding the military compared to its needs.

Either way, if the U.S. produces a lot of "crap," so what? Free market economies guide producers to create what consumers will buy. The only alternative is state control - which failed absolutely in the Soviet Union and is unsuccessful in China that they are moving toward free markets to keep up with us.

Quote:
Anyway, the gulf between the United States - OR Europe - and the Third World is an unequal "distribution" of wealth.

The difference between the U.S. and Europe may be one of economic freedom/ laws (the European Unionīs just trying to catch up), but the difference to Third World States - no way.

Are we stealing? Yes, constantly. In a kind of reversed Robin Hood manner: steal from the poor, give it to the rich ones.

Just admit it, it doesnīt make you or me a bad person, we donīt direct the price of the bananas or whatever. First of all, America was stolen (remember the Indians, who believed that land belongs to every being and is not buyable?), and Europe build up big part of its wealth with stolen wealth and resources from its colonies.
Every time I hear the "reverse Robin Hood" metaphor, I am forced to scratch my head and wonder: the poor don't have that much, so what is there to steal?

But I digress.

To say that we stole our land from the Indians - true as it may well be - is to evade the issue. You're saying that we are CURRENTLY, THIS VERY MOMENT, stealing from the Third World; the defrauding of native Americans 150 years ago is utterly irrelevant.

How are we "constantly" stealing from the Third World now?

We're certainly not sending our military, marauder-style, to steal food from Africa. In fact, last time our military was in Africa (Somalia), it was to protect food that the industrialized world was sending to it.

The only stealing I can think of is the following case: corporations lease land from the local government for next to nothing, clear-cut the land, and leave. But why does THAT happen?

Simple: those countries have very little private property - note how the company leases the land from the government. If the bulk of the land was owned privately by native-born people, and if those private property rights were respected by the rule of law, then MOST of the problem would be solved. Third World logging would be comparable to American logging, which is MUCH better for the locals (not to mention the environment).


I reiterate: "The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law)."
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:57 PM   #38
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What do you mean, breadbasket? It doesnīt mean that U.S. gives all this away for free, does it? Ok, great that you are a producer of so much food, but how much over-production is thrown into U.S. dustbins while others die of hunger?

Then, an interseting point that you didnīt touch, is the 20 bil/ 300 bil difference. Even if I am not sure that this number is exact (but I can research a little if you are interested), points like this make clear that our nice rich nations are thieves. Oh, not in the sense that they are haunted by police, or the responsible persons go to prison, but in the sense that interest rates are directed to let our wealth prosper, while it makes poor countries even poorer.

Last but not least: Those statistics are interesting, the ones about how much export volume (in dollars) the U.S. makes with arms exports, is even more interesting. You know, the fun thing about it is: who makes the money? The 30,000 people that were laid off at Boeing? The average American person? No. But who pays for supporting those exports? The ones who make the big deal? No, the taxpayer (over the Pentagon).

Who pays for the military training the Pentagon finances in over 70 (yes that is SEVENTY! Expect a few Bin Ladens to creep out, brothers!) countries in all the world? And who pays that? YOU!!!

Now, I am really laughing my ass off, how supportive you are to the fake of democracy youīre living in. Just answer me: I really really think that more than 50 percent of Americans would be against this special waste program, if they were informed about it properly. Maybe the so-called civil society would be too lazy to get away from the T.V. hail star wars propaganda, but tell me:

Why does America never vote about those issues, military spending, f.e.? Why does the Pentagon, backed by Congress, poop out another billions to General Electric when their betrayals were proven? Whatīs up with your Enron et al. crisis? Lots of talking, but nothing happening, except of fishy announcements?

Oh, it must be because you live in a democracy.
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Old 07-17-2002, 02:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


Whether you considered it or not, we do produce and export a HELL of a lot of food.

I will grant that we also spend a lot building up our military, but it would be foolish to decrease military spending in this very dangerous world, and the reality is, we are probably underfunding the military compared to its needs.

Either way, if the U.S. produces a lot of "crap," so what? Free market economies guide producers to create what consumers will buy. The only alternative is state control - which failed absolutely in the Soviet Union and is unsuccessful in China that they are moving toward free markets to keep up with us.



Every time I hear the "reverse Robin Hood" metaphor, I am forced to scratch my head and wonder: the poor don't have that much, so what is there to steal?

But I digress.

To say that we stole our land from the Indians - true as it may well be - is to evade the issue. You're saying that we are CURRENTLY, THIS VERY MOMENT, stealing from the Third World; the defrauding of native Americans 150 years ago is utterly irrelevant.

How are we "constantly" stealing from the Third World now?

We're certainly not sending our military, marauder-style, to steal food from Africa. In fact, last time our military was in Africa (Somalia), it was to protect food that the industrialized world was sending to it.

The only stealing I can think of is the following case: corporations lease land from the local government for next to nothing, clear-cut the land, and leave. But why does THAT happen?

Simple: those countries have very little private property - note how the company leases the land from the government. If the bulk of the land was owned privately by native-born people, and if those private property rights were respected by the rule of law, then MOST of the problem would be solved. Third World logging would be comparable to American logging, which is MUCH better for the locals (not to mention the environment).


I reiterate: "The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law)."

First, the only alternative is not state control, in the sense of communism. Another alternative would be to put restrictions on free worldwide production and selling. The U.S. had more regulations in the past, and Fordism functioned only for a certain period of time. My opinion is that economy has to be regulated.

You wonder: the poor donīt have that much so what could we steal? Turn on your head, big man. Their PRODUCTS!

Yes, these are amongst what we are constantly stealing from the third world. See the interests for debts above, just one example. Much bigger example: you can steal if you direct the price, nooooo? Never occured to you? The private wealth in third world countries also doesnīt rise because they are underpaid. Like the bananas mentioned above (or any other product they export): Apart from that WE should pay more, because then we would be more careful with food and throw less away, the main part of profits goes to the spans in between: transport, importers, and then supermarkets.

Fact is that first world has all the control. And with control, you have all the possibilities. Even to hide your stealing as normal economical procedures. But there is only one truth, and this stays the same: We are thieves, each and every day.

Oh, and the military spending is so high because we want this situation of control to STAY like it is. Iīm not saying that people from third world countries would be at the same level with us, but I am saying that the Pentagon and its beloved agancys do their very best to keep the situation like it is. Political instability is not a motor to development and independency and freedom. And I donīt think the main goal of the C.I.A. is to stabilise other countries, is it?

Interesting example: one time I was watching a documentary about ex agency workers. One of them was telling a story... donīt remember which country it was, latin america somewhere...
like he was having a job as a truckdriver, a meat transport truck, right. Then, they got the order to destabilize the country, maybe because some paranoid in Langley had the idea someone social could rise. Simple thing: the agent stopped his car, didnīt transport anymore, this makes tons of bad meat stinking in the sun, which makes people nervous - as they donīt have that much there, they donīt like wasting resources - take this little example, multiply it with 10,000 and the country is destabilized.

Cool how we keep our wealth and destoy development policies, hmmm?


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Old 07-17-2002, 02:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Last but not least: Those statistics are interesting, the ones about how much export volume (in dollars) the U.S. makes with arms exports, is even more interesting.
I think it's important to note that though the arms export numbers may be more interesting than the agricultural numbers, they are smaller. The United States' number one export is agricultural products, worth 50-60 billion dollars per year. According to the USDA, our trade surplus in agricultural goods is expected to top $18 billion in 2002.
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Old 07-17-2002, 03:11 PM   #41
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Anybody else getting a headache from hiphop's posts?

Seriously, half of it doesn't make any sense, the other half is the same old liberal crap that is shoveled onto this forum on a regular basis: America bad, socialism good.

On the "America is bad" front:

We are overcharging our products. We're throwing away extra food rather than export it. We're profiting from interest rates applied to our own debts (explain THAT one). We, once again, deserved the attacks on 9/11/01: "Expect a few Bin Ladens to creep out, brothers!" We're greedily setting banana prices too low (never mind that all we're doing is simply allowing market forces to take over). The CIA is intentionally destabalizing other countries - not because their leadership is a threat to our interests, but just to make more money.

And "We are thieves, each and every day."

(I'm shocked that he didn't explicitly say that the bourgeoisie steal from the proletariat each and every day.)


And on "Socialism is good" front:

EVERY solution is more regulation.

Quote:
First, the only alternative is not state control, in the sense of communism. Another alternative would be to put restrictions on free worldwide production and selling. The U.S. had more regulations in the past, and Fordism functioned only for a certain period of time. My opinion is that economy has to be regulated.
How is regulation NOT state control of the economy? Even if the means of production are technically privately owned, it doesn't much matter if the government is setting prices.
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Old 07-17-2002, 10:00 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


No, we only know that you think photos of babies with guns are wonderful.

Being one of the NICE guys, I may ask: Did I misinterprete your post (maybe you just thought that the baby and therefore the photo is wonderful and you just didnīt see the gun)?
No I don't see any reason to arm babies with guns or suicide bombs/grenades

Thank you for asking though, you obviously couldn't smell the sarcasm in that other thread where I commented on the picture
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Old 07-18-2002, 01:09 AM   #43
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As far as which country has the most wealth, and which country buys more products from other countries, its the American consumer. We have the money, and are dollars and buying habbits often keep the Global economy from sinking. People around the world love America for that fact, America is the largest market in the world. Guess which country U2 makes most of its money in?

By the way, the goal of the US government and military is a stable world with free trade, and the development of market based democracies throughout the third world. The reason for that is simple, wealth and business increase when there is stability and free trade. Developing market based democratic countries helps achieve this goal.
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Old 07-18-2002, 02:22 AM   #44
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Well said, Sting.

Even if the United States' ranking were to drop through the proliferation of stable governments, the rule of law, and free trade - a definite possibility considering that some nations do have more land (Russia) or more people (China) - individual Americans (and Africans and Asians, etc.) would still be better off. They would all be able to purchase higher quality goods at lower prices.
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:14 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Anybody else getting a headache from hiphop's posts?
No kidding! I almost vomited there. What he\she is advocating is obviously socialism. This person undoubtedly spends quite a bit of time memorizing the script written for them on the hundreds of left-wing "watch" sites all over the internet claiming to have the "truth". See Danospano's post listing America's evils for more evidence of what a left-wing script looks like. Does anyone here really believe that whenhiphopdrovethebigcars has a good background in economics or business? Educated at Harvard\UPENN\Yale\Berkeley? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds more like community college.

"fake of democracy youīre living in"

Yeah, this makes sense because WE'RE living in the "fake" democracy and YOU'RE living in the "real" democracy, right? Hahaha.....as long as you continue to benefit from this system, you're as culpable as we are for its sins. Your arguements make it sound like you are a third-person observer objectively looking at all of this without any bias. The reality is that you're feeding at the capitalist trough with the rest of us and shitting in the food. Get your head out of here and go feed at the socialist trough. Be careful though! I hear they don't mix in any sugar and honey
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