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Old 07-15-2002, 05:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


...but just throwing fiddlesticks, like "how is this measured?" or "are these two related?", or "I am not familiar with these".
Well, if you´re not familiar with these or about measuring methods, educate yourself!
One way to educate yourself is to ask questions, like "how is this measured?".

Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Who has written this article?
See, you asked a question, and someone answered, and you were educated.

(sorry, I'm cranky this afternoon)
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Old 07-15-2002, 05:52 PM   #17
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Big Grin

Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

z edge, I think your post shows how much a nation can be inhibited by its own culture.
Yes you are right. I am the epitome of american ignorrance/arrogance. If you want to know everything about me then just watch the movie American Pie I or II. Thats all there is, just that loud, arrogant, self-absorbed american or "ugly american" thats me and my culture. Ahh yes, thank you for noticing, as I tried soooo hard to get your attention and it has finally worked.

Quote:
First, you try to seem cool by popping off one sentence per 3 points. But then, there are nearly no arguments
ah yes cool, I do try desperately to attain this measure of ones worth. I mean if you are not cool, then what else is there?

Quote:
but just throwing fiddlesticks, like "how is this measured?" or "are these two related?", or "I am not familiar with these".
Well, if you´re not familiar with these or about measuring methods, educate yourself!
Oh gosh, you've got me again *claps hands for you* "!YaY!"

But you see hippoh, I just can't win can I? Out of respect for Dannospano's feelings, I did not question any of the validity of the facts he stated (he stated "check out the facts" in the title) even though he did not even state where he got this information. While I may not agree with it, it is hard to even accept it without the source, but since there has been controversey form some of his posts regarding the source(s) I assume that is the reason he did not say where this came from.

SO I try to be nice and I'm not being arguementative and I am attacked for not arguing? Sweetheart, do I need your permission to post from now on?

And as far as educating myself, you see I am such a busy little boy! While I am busy 6 days a week making bombs for Uncle Sam, my evenings are filled with getting my lavish home ready for my new swimming pool, so I can only post occasionly when I check in.

And really, we all know I don't care about what goes on outside my country except for my bombs

Quote:
And live up to your nick, or at least try to give the impression that you´re trying to.
But I still love you very much
with all of my

Z-
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Old 07-15-2002, 10:24 PM   #18
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You forgot one!

Danospano:

You forgot one! We were #1 (Gold medal!) in women's bobsledding in the Olympics this year! The "brake," Vonetta Flowers, was from my town!

Also I think that Hughes girl won something skating.

Add those to your list!!!! PLEASE!!!!!

~U2Alabama
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Old 07-15-2002, 10:40 PM   #19
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i'm still curious to find out where these facts came from, to see if they clarify their points a little more. like some people mentioned, a lot of these things may be comparing numbers of one country to another. of course we'll have higher everything, we're more populated than canada.
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:01 AM   #20
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I'm not sure about the source of these statistics. I agree that some were striking due to the mere size of the United States. Others were frightening.

Nevertheless, I posted it to cause a discussion concerning the darker side of America. Mainly because we so many patriotic, American never does wrong, believers.
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:12 AM   #21
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i can't say it is very surprising. I sometimes wonder if people pay enought attention to these problems, but i guess this shows it.
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Old 07-16-2002, 04:21 AM   #22
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The source: "Stupid White Men", by none other than Michael Moore. Chapter's Two and Eight will supply more information on this topic.

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Old 07-16-2002, 11:48 PM   #23
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Here are more specific sources for the information listed above:

1)www.worldgame.org
2)Center for Defense Information: "The Costs of Ballistic Missile Defense," By Christopher Hellman,
3)The World Bank's report, "Meeting the Challenge: Mural Energy and Development for Two Billion People Report", 2000.
4)Council for a Livable World, "Fiscal Year 2001 Military Budget at a Glance," www.clw.org.
5)US Vital Statistics----US Census Bureau Population Report Table #247
6)US National Center for Education Statistics, Digest of Education Statistics #311.
7)Children Defense Fund, "The State of America's Children Yearbook 2000"
8) UN Human Development Report 2000
9) US Vital Statistics, Tables #1356, 1361, 1390, 1398
10)Energy Information Administration, "Official Energy Statistics from the US Government's"
11)Amnesty International Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty, 6/1/01
12)Patrick Moynihan, "Family and Nation". 1986, p. 96.
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Old 07-16-2002, 11:51 PM   #24
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You could also list an Olympics site, since it would list the different sports in which U.S. athletes won the Gold (#1). I think it might be good since you want a composite listing of things in which the U.S. is #1!

~U2Alabama
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Old 07-17-2002, 12:25 AM   #25
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I'm not interested in sports statistics, (well actually, they're not that bad), but thanks for the pointer.
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Old 07-17-2002, 12:27 AM   #26
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I really don't understand why people are shocked and angered by these statistics. Any entry-level class in World Politics, Sociology, or Economics would tell you the same exact thing...Americans are the largest consumers of the world's resources. There's no getting around it. You can use the population argument to justify the statistics if you want, but that won't hold up because countries like India and China have populations of 1 billion+.

And America might have (some of) the finest universities in the world, but I would say that the US K-12 educational system (which is where 8th grade scores factor in) is one of the easiest in the world.
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Old 07-17-2002, 12:33 AM   #27
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Re: The United States in #1....(just check out all of these facts!!!)

Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
o Becoming the first society in history in which the poorest group in the population are children
He might mean that we'll be the first generation in a while whose children will be less wealthy than us (or something along those lines).
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Old 07-17-2002, 02:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by kariatari
I really don't understand why people are shocked and angered by these statistics. Any entry-level class in World Politics, Sociology, or Economics would tell you the same exact thing...Americans are the largest consumers of the world's resources. There's no getting around it. You can use the population argument to justify the statistics if you want, but that won't hold up because countries like India and China have populations of 1 billion+.
But what about PRODUCTION? If we're also the largest producers in the world, doesn't that offset our consumption just a wee bit?

It certainly seems that we lead the world in production. From the CIA's "World Factbook 2001":

The Gross World Product in 2000 was an estimated $43.6 trillion. The United States was responsible for $10.0 trillion, or 23%. The world's population (July 2001 estimate) is about 6,157 million people - a little over 6 billion. The population of the United States is 278 million, or 4.5%.

Therefore, 4.5% of the world's humans (those in the greedy United States) is responsible for the production of 23% of the world's wealth.

Let us look at these stats in a country-by-country comparison. For brevity, let's compare the United States to the other G8 countries, China, India, and Brazil. (As a reminder, the G8 includes the following countries: the U.S., the U.K., France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Canada, and Russia.)


From the same source, a comparison of Gross Domestic Products (2000 estimate, in billions of U.S. dollars):

$9,963 - United States
$4,500 - China
$3,150 - Japan
$2,200 - India
$1,936 - Germany
$1,448 - France
$1,360 - United Kingdom
$1,273 - Italy
$1,130 - Brazil
$1,120 - Russia
$ 775 - Canada


Now, let's normalize for population, and consider per capita GDP:

$36,200 - United States
$24,900 - Japan
$24,800 - Canada
$24,400 - France
$23,400 - Germany
$22,800 - United Kingdom
$22,100 - Italy
$ 7,700 - Russia
$ 6,500 - Brazil
$ 3,600 - China
$ 2,200 - India


We purchase more certainly, but we also PRODUCE MORE. Such a correlation between consumption and production should make a lot of sense to any student of economics:

- We consume more because we have more money.
- We have more money because we produce more wealth.

The ONLY way that one will not come to that conclusion is if you assume that we greedy Americans STEAL from other countries. That notion is, by and large, CRAP.


...all of this leads to another unspoken question: why us?

More specifically, why does the United States and Japan have such productive economies (particularly when you normalize for population? Why doesn't Europe or China?

Is it the abundance of natural resources? Well, no: Japan is a small, rocky archipelago and it's doing far better (per capita) than its large neighbor to the west and is able to just outpace all of Europe. Is it the long-established government? Again, no: the U.K.'s government has been around far longer than the American and Japanese governments.

Could it be... economic freedom?

I think so: I think economic freedom (capitalism, the only "-ism" that occurs on its own) is why we're doing so well: competition, economic rewards for offering the best product at the lowest price. The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law).


At any rate, I believe I've thoroughly discredited the notion - implied or outright stated - that the United States is nothing more than a giant, bloated consumer of goods. We are also a great producer of goods, feeding much of the rest of the world, serving as one of this planet's great breadbaskets.

Isn't it telling that Michael Moore's uncredited list fails to mention this?

Isn't it also telling what stats DANOSPANO seems focused on?
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Old 07-17-2002, 04:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


Yes you are right. I am the epitome of american ignorrance/arrogance. If you want to know everything about me then just watch the movie American Pie I or II. Thats all there is, just that loud, arrogant, self-absorbed american or "ugly american" thats me and my culture. Ahh yes, thank you for noticing, as I tried soooo hard to get your attention and it has finally worked.



ah yes cool, I do try desperately to attain this measure of ones worth. I mean if you are not cool, then what else is there?



Oh gosh, you've got me again *claps hands for you* "!YaY!"

But you see hippoh, I just can't win can I? Out of respect for Dannospano's feelings, I did not question any of the validity of the facts he stated (he stated "check out the facts" in the title) even though he did not even state where he got this information. While I may not agree with it, it is hard to even accept it without the source, but since there has been controversey form some of his posts regarding the source(s) I assume that is the reason he did not say where this came from.

SO I try to be nice and I'm not being arguementative and I am attacked for not arguing? Sweetheart, do I need your permission to post from now on?

And as far as educating myself, you see I am such a busy little boy! While I am busy 6 days a week making bombs for Uncle Sam, my evenings are filled with getting my lavish home ready for my new swimming pool, so I can only post occasionly when I check in.

And really, we all know I don't care about what goes on outside my country except for my bombs



But I still love you very much
with all of my

Z-

LMAO!!! I love you too, honey.
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Old 07-17-2002, 05:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
More specifically, why does the United States and Japan have such productive economies (particularly when you normalize for population? Why doesn't Europe or China?


China has the fastest growing economy in the world, in fact it's expected to overtake the United States as the largest economy in the world within the next ten to twenty years.

Quote:
At any rate, I believe I've thoroughly discredited the notion - implied or outright stated - that the United States is nothing more than a giant, bloated consumer of goods. We are also a great producer of goods, feeding much of the rest of the world, serving as one of this planet's great breadbaskets.
For the US to serve as "one of this planet's great breadbaskets" it would have to export a significant amount of what it produces, correct? And yet the United States imports far more than it exports, which is what the accumulated external debt of the US is $2.3 trillion [1] (compare that to the external debt of all developing countries added together - $2.5 trillion [2]. Also compare the $20 billion annually the US pays to service that debt to the $300 billion developing countries pay.)

If the US is the richest country in the world (and I don't dispute that it is) then why does it owe so much money?

Sources:
[1]IMF handbook of International Financial Statistics, November 2001
[2]The Economist, Febuary 2002
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