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Old 10-07-2004, 06:25 PM   #1
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The Undecided debate thread!

I'm not sure if this is going to work because I think most people in this forum have decided who they are voting for already or who they would vote for if they lived in the United States.

But, I'd like to see people who have not made up their minds yet on who they are voting for, or would vote for, debate the election in here. I think it would be refreshing, although there may not be enough people in this category here to make it work.

Lets make this off limits to anyone that has already decided who they are voting for.

For the undecided, discuss the issues around the election, why your having difficulty deciding, and anything else you want to mention or feel is important in regards to the election.
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Old 10-07-2004, 06:32 PM   #2
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Hey, I am currently running for elections, I already got one supporter, and things are speeding up. Vote for me!
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Old 10-08-2004, 12:50 AM   #3
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And we'll promise you we don't add your e-mail addresses to propaganda-lists of our beloved party just because you haven't decided yet
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Old 10-08-2004, 07:25 AM   #4
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Alright, I have a lot to say, so bear with me...

I'm not sure who to vote for because I think both Bush and Kerry are not going to do America any good. Bush seems disillusioned, and has the wrong cabinet members (Rumsfeld needs to go). Kerry...well, I used to think of him as a disgruntled Vietnam vet, but I don't think he is that anymore. His accusations of what was done in Vietnam seem pre-planned as if he went to Vietnam solely to defame the soldiers.

My main concern for this election is the war on terror, Iraq, America's foreign policy and the military. I am concerned about the service men and women because I have alot of family members who have served in the military. My dad was an officer in the reservers, nearly all my uncles served in either the Korean or Vietnam war, my two brothers-in-law were in the Marines, and who knows if the draft is brought back that they might be drafted. So this issue is in my blood, and I firmly believe in supporting the troops, not matter what.
Kerry's attitude towards the military, as seen by his voting record on military issues, is appalling. I feel this guy is going to dismantle the US military, at a time when we need it most. I remember he once said he would do away with America's nuclear missiles, yet its clear that al-Qaeda is trying to develop nuclear weapons, and you have Iran developing nuclear programs for whatever reason. And also, this whole thing about Kerry flip-flopping and not being able to make up his mind, is just him trying to appeal to the more conservative voters so he would win, and once he's in the White House, he'll unleash what he really believes on US military and foreign policy, which is too liberal for me. I totally disagree that we should let the UN make decisions for us.

As for Bush, this guy is not helping us with our relationship with the rest of the world. He seems trapped in a 1950s thinking that America needs to make the world safer for democracy and we're the liberators of the world, and that doesn't seem to fit in today's world. I was leary about the Iraqi war and had doubts about the WMDs. But I don't think Bush deliberately lied about the WMDs, I think he was disillusioned, probably went to Iraq to do what his father couldn't do. I feel misled, and feel Bush has got to stop acting like nothing is wrong.
But I think the concern should be what to do about Iraq now. We got ourselves into a big mess that killed too many US soldiers, caused chaos in a country that didn't have to be liberated because there are plenty of other countries living under oppressive dictatorships, and so on. But Bush has got to figure out how to finish what he started, so Iraq would be a stable and free country enough as he promised. Its hard to trust him though.

One of the reasons why I'm not sure who to vote for is that I am cynical about politics. I believe all politicians are liars who care only for being in power rather than the needs of Americans. I'm also completely turned off by all the bi-polarism here which has made me avoid the election for most of this year. All this liberal vs. conservative issues is overwhelming, frightening and even bizarre sometimes.

I have no idea what I'll do when I vote. I wish I didn't feel that it is my obligation as an American to vote. I think what I'll do is cover my eyes and turn whatever switch I lay my finger on. Whoever wins, I don't think either one would do America any good.
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Old 10-08-2004, 08:09 AM   #5
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As always one must vote for the lesser of two (or three ) evils.
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Old 10-08-2004, 08:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
As always one must vote for the lesser of two (or three ) evils.
so true, yet so sad.

i don't know who i am going to vote for yet either (most certainly not bush though) nor whether or not i will vote at all. i have no faith in the american electoral system to bring about any meaningful social change. i ask myself, "why bother?" i'm not convinced yet that i should.
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Old 10-08-2004, 02:01 PM   #7
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I believe I lean right moderate but I'm probably not going to vote b/c I'm still disenchanted with both parties. I'm not going to vote for other parties such as Libertarian, Green, etc. b/c as much as I am disenchanted with the main parties, those smaller parties just don't fit in with my point of view.

I believe Kerry is a terrible candidate and IMO and the more I find out about Edwards, his standing with me comes down a bit. I used to feel pretty alright with the democratic party but as time has passed, I've become more disgusted with the party. I believe my disgust began around the time of Monica-gate. I would have voted Clinton when he first came up but I was not of voting age. When I was even younger, I was pro-Dukakis, but I believe Democrats have gone down hill since Clinton. I believe they do lack ideas or just plain suck at pushing foward new ideas and Terry McCaullife just sucks period. I really dislike the man.

However I voted Bush before and have become less enamoured with his administration as his term comes to a close. Bush maybe alright as a person but there is no denying that his administration has been less than stellar.

I do not blame Bush for the economy and IMO he has been a decent steward given the fact we had a huge tech bubble that burst, 911, wars (Afghanistan and Iraq), recession, and corporate mayhem. IMO Bush's economic policies were probably effective.

The deficit doesn't bother me as much b/c during a recession, deficit spending may actually be necessary in order to help keep the economy rolling and I believe the US economy can take it. With that said, Cheney's statement of deficits not mattering just rubs me the wrong way. The loss of the surplus is overrated b/c they were PROJECTED surpluses and not actual money coming in.

I actually believe that the economy will be better in the coming months and that the US job picture will continue to improve. I give Bush a decent grade again. IF not for this past year, he would have gotten a D- from me but now he gets B or B+.

I have no problems with Bush pulling out of Kyoto, World court, etc... that is b/c I have a particular philosophy on that. I believe the world was waiting/ ready to hate Bush to be honest but that is my opinion. What do I think about the whole annoying allies thing? I believe it opened my eyes to how ineffective the UN really is and just strengthened my "competitive" viewpoint of the world.

The main thing that pisses me off about Bush is not Cheney. I don't think he is evil/ corrupt. I don't think the same of Rumsfeld. I just believe they have specific viewpoints that are just different but they love their country. Same with Clinton and Kerry. However I dislike Wolfowitz and the other guy (associated with the Iraq War movement in the administration). What pisses me off is post-war planning. I have no problem with the Iraqi war. It is/ was a plan/ idea. I believe Saddam is an evil man and should be disposed of, even if there have been no WMDs found. I do believe the party line of Saddam being a person who "would just re-up his program if given a chance." I don't mind him/ Iraq being a part of a broader plan to battle terrorism. The idea that freedom/ democracy being brought to the Middle East through force is a crazy idea but is an idea nonetheless and an idea I'm willing to go forth with under the right circumstances. However, part of that thinking comes from a more pro-active midset that I have.

However, what I do care about is getting the job done right. Every indication points to lack of post-war planning in terms of insurgents, re-building, etc. IMO the US could have prevented the insurgency from being this bad/ problematic but the government were too far up their own asses to plan for contingencies or run a very effective war to deal with that problem. IMO I cannot fully support Bush b/c of this. This is as close to incompetance as one can get. It is worthy enough of an issue that voting an incumbent out is what I would do. A big and crazy idea that is carried out must have careful planning and an adequate covering of all contingencies.

However, to me, Kerry's party and Kerry himself has not convinced me of voting for him and IMO he and his party have made themselves appear worse. At least I could respect Howard Dean and Kucinich for their anti-war sentiment but Kerry's changing of position just makes me sick. Kerry was pretty hawkish and it is clear to me he compromised his "beliefs" for the liberal wing of his party. I hate the "whole wrong war, wrong time, wrong place" lines or "knowing what I know now" spin. To me he should have left the war itself alone. TO me he comes off as a selfish hypocrite by saying such things. IMO if he wants to criticze the War, it should be post-war planning and the post-war insurgency. IMO such statements do hurt morale and do give terrorists/ insurgents hope to continue what their doing. I freakin' hate that especially since he was a "hawk."

So now I'm undecided about whether or not to vote for Bush or not to vote. Kerry and company could have won my vote but IMO he's lost it with his crappy campaign.

How's that for an undecided voter's thought process even though its not considering the Dems...
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pearl
I have no idea what I'll do when I vote. I wish I didn't feel that it is my obligation as an American to vote. I think what I'll do is cover my eyes and turn whatever switch I lay my finger on. Whoever wins, I don't think either one would do America any good.
Ha! I felt this way in 2000 and ended up voting for John McCain. Wrote his name in on my ballot. I would say go and vote. If you don't agree with any candidate, vote for you. It's not a throw away vote.
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Old 10-09-2004, 02:34 AM   #9
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go with sting. much better.
stares at you while you buy underwear, but doesn't pretend that's not what he wants to do.
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Old 10-09-2004, 06:08 AM   #10
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Ha! I felt this way in 2000 and ended up voting for John McCain. Wrote his name in on my ballot. I would say go and vote. If you don't agree with any candidate, vote for you. It's not a throw away vote
Oh I am going to vote, just not happy with the candidates. If only John McCain were running, I would seriously consider voting for him. Although, I still can't believe he hosted SNL...

I've thought about voting for the other parties (like the Libertarian), but that's kind of a waste because they're obviously not going to win. The most I would be doing is show how I don't like the two party system which gives little options in choosing a politician.
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:19 PM   #11
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Heres an appropiate article-

Watching the Debate Through Someone Else’s Eyes

My wife is the best political analyst I know. Why? Because she’s almost totally apolitical. She comes from an extremely liberal Democrat family (her folks were Clinton county chairs in New Hampshire), but inherited none of her progenitors’ passions. She was also raised as a traditional Catholic, and has only become more so as she has grown. She’s a licensed social worker and child therapist. She served in the Peace Corps. This is not some naïve dimwit we’re talking about here. But still, political matters only carry her attention for so long before she rolls her eyes and changes the channel.
The result of her eclectic influences is a strange brew of economic liberalism and hardcore social conservatism. Think of a libertarian. Then think of his exact opposite on just about every issue and you’ve got my wife. (But no, my wife is not a fascist!)

Please click READ MORE …

Okay, so last night I found her yelling back at the television during the debate (heretofore only something fetishists and junkies like I did, or my father when he was visiting … oh boy, does the TV get a tongue-lashing when my father is in town.) “We already know what you think,” she snapped. “I’m getting sick of this guy’s repetition.” “This guy looks really tired.” “ugh!”

She was, thank God, talking about America’s Most Liberal Senator, John Kerry. Hers was a helpful analysis because, as a political professional, I think in talking points. With every comment John Kerry made, I was jotting down a mental rebuttal, what I would say if I were president? All wrapped up in the moment, I sometimes forget these dog-and-pony shows are about perceptions. Who appears strong? Who appears weak? Who’s stupid? Who’s tired? Who’s aloof?


SHE BROUGHT ME to and helpfully reminded me that President Bush looked “aggressive” and “strong” while John Kerry looked “tired” and “condescending.” (She was also creeped out, by the way, when John Kerry’s mouth ran dry and he repeatedly licked his lips with a white, chafed tongue. She pointed out President Bush’s weird side-to-side jaw thingy, too. But she wasn’t bothered by it.)

My wife also got a genuine kick out of watching President Bush when John Kerry was talking. (It’s always bad if voters are watching the other guy just sit there while you have center stage.) President Bush, famously fraternal, was winking at folks, occasionally having little side conversations with people, shooting them with his finger. Bush was more comfortable just sittin’ and BS’n with the folks than exchanging bullet points with Captain Blab-Blab. My wife noticed and thought it was cute.


BEAR IN MIND, my wife is not the typical, off-the-shelf swing voter. This is a woman who thinks abortion is murder. Prayer in school? Absolutely. Ten Commandment posted on every street corner? That’ll probably help curb crime. But at the same time, she wants more money for every government program under the sun. And recoils when told President Bush isn’t funding things like No Child Left Behind and AIDS relief in Africa (a horror she has witnessed firsthand.) Moreover, she lives in Maryland, which will very likely go for John Kerry in a walk.

But her insight is nonetheless invaluable, because she didn’t score the debate with a notepad and a checklist, the way we hobbyists do. She gets a feeling about the candidates. And she felt President Bush did great. And she was annoyed by John Kerry.

This has started to become a trend for her. She watched both the Bushes’ and the Kerrys’ respective visits with Dr. Phil, the pop-head shrinker (who seems a bit touched himself, if you ask me.) And she came away with a tremendously warm feeling toward the Bushes whom she said shared a genuine friendship, not just a wedded tolerance. The Kerrys? Or rather, the Heinz Kerry’s? Not so lovey dovey, she tells me. Almost as though an invisible glass partition was erected between them.


WHEN GUYS LIKE SEAN HANNITY and Rush Limbaugh do their impressions of John Kerry, they exaggerate his pompous bass (or is it baritone? I don’t know), always beginning each sentence with I … I … I. So when my wife did her own impression of Kerry in much the same fashion, intentionally deepening her voice and using stiff movements to mock him, I couldn’t help but laugh out loud with glee.

“I get sick of hearing him say ‘I have a plan,’” she said. Then she goes into full John Kerry mode, “‘I have a plan for this … I have a plan for that …’” That’s so empty. It doesn’t mean anything. What is your plan and why didn’t you do any of this stuff in the US Senate over the last twenty years?” John Kerry is lucky he didn’t debate my wife.


SO THERE YOU HAVE IT. My own mini-focus group of one. Bush cleaned his clock, at least according to one undecided, female, Catholic, social worker in Maryland who happens to be married to a professional Republican political hack. Mr. President, you have that demo locked up, my friend.
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:54 PM   #12
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Another Undecided about decided--

Please read-

Swing Voters Swinging


We now know of at least one undecided voter who decided to vote for Bush after the debate.

Robin Dahle, who asked President Bush the first question yesterday, was just on NPR’s Weekend America. Dahle is on about 3:40 into the audio (courtesy of KUOW.)

Dahle said that, before the debate, there was a 40 percent chance he’d vote for President Bush. He’s now 80-90 percent sure of his vote, although not 100 percent.

The reason he gave was that Bush was more “personable.” He also said that Kerry blundered when he said that only 3 people in the room made $200,000/year. He said that Kerry had made that assumption based on the appearance of the audience and the location of the debate. Dahle found that condescending.
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Old 10-09-2004, 11:31 PM   #13
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Diamond I noticed you didn't leave the link for your first response.
"Watching the Debate Through Someone Else’s Eyes"

That comes from CrushKerry.com.

Nice impartial view from a "true" undecided voter.
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