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Old 07-21-2004, 05:45 PM   #16
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Originally posted by anitram


Yes, presumably that is why we hear this "UN resolutions" speeches over and over and over again. Scum and villainy, except when you've got resolutions they passed that you want to enforce. Then it's a priority the world get together and do so and anyone who doesn't respect the resolutions is a terrorist sympathizer. Talk a little out of this side of your mouth, a little out of that.
Couldn't have said it any better myself.
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Old 07-21-2004, 06:50 PM   #17
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The fact that no one else in this forum is responding to these obviously slanted and prejudicial statements toward the U.N. and without accepting the brutal and oppressive way that the state of Israel was even formed ( a war of attack to take over the land of Palestine) shows that your vicious statements full of negativity OFFER NOTHING TO HELP THE CAUSE OF INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND UNDERSTANDING.

And international peace and understanding (let alone Justice for tens of thousands of Palestinian people forcibly removed from land that THEIR ancestors had lived on for thousands of years) are issues that U2 have held CLOSE TO THEIR HEARTS and even attempted to bring up at the Popmart concert in Tel Aviv, to a silent snub by the audience!

Charity and Justice must begin at home, or it does not live in your hearts. I say "NO MORE" to war, prejudice and negative posts.

Offer us something POSITIVE - a solution which promotes Peace with Justice. This is what someone who professes to love and understand U2 would do.
Israel was the country that was attacked upon its formation in 1948, not the Palestinian area's. Israel was attacked by 5 different Arab countries on the day it was formed. It would then be attacked by Arab nations who to this day refuse to recognize Israel, in almost every decade in the last half of the 20th century. We have Palestinian youths running into disco's and Shopping Mall, TARGETING innocent women and childern.

Israel has a right to exist and was formed by people who were living in the area upon the discentigration of the Ottoman Empire following World War I.

In this situation, the only ones who "OFFER NOTHING TO HELP THE CAUSE OF INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND UNDERSTANDING" are the Palestinians who engage and support the terrorism against Israel. Where is the "NON-Violent" Palestinian movement? Name one Palestinian group that advocates "non-violence" for resolving the conflict!

Israel does what it has to do to survive in a region where they are surrounded by enemies. Israely's and descendents of Jews in Europe have this spirit of survival in them. As Hitler was slaughtering the Jews with the help or non-interference of millions of Europeans, they stood up and did the best they could to survive. Many Israely's today lived in Europe during that time or are descendents of those Jews that lived through the hell that Europe put them through in the first half of the 20th century.


U2 are not pacifist and supported the use of military force in Bosnia and Afghanistan. Just read Bill Flannagans book "Until The End Of The World" and the year end issue of HOT PRESS for 2001.

Peace and Justice are never achieved when terrorist are allowed to thrive and operate at will.


"And I end with a paraphrase of Bono from 1987:"

"There's two sides to this story, and frankly, I'm sick of both of them."

That quote of Bono is about the war in Northern Ireland, not the Israely/Palestinian issue or any other issue for that matter.
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Old 07-21-2004, 06:56 PM   #18
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As far as the fence goes, it is saving lives, which is something that much of the world seems to forget. Israel has every right to defend itself, and if need be send its military into Palestinian area's or if need be, neighboring countries that harbor terrorist.

Where the fence currently is could be the final border for any settlement. Until there is a final settlement, claims that the fence is built on "Palestinian land" here and there are not accurate.



As far as the resolution goes, lets remember it was passed under CHAPTER VI rules of the United Nations, which only allow enforcement through negotiation. Resolutions passed against Saddam's Iraq are much more serious as they are passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations which allow the use of military force as a means of enforcement of the resolution.
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Old 07-21-2004, 07:06 PM   #19
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I hope you have all read Exodus by Leon Uris
it is a beautiful fiction book about the israel/palestine struggle with a lot of accurate history

what they endured on their first day of independance is horrid...and miraculous that they weren't all killed.
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Old 07-21-2004, 08:08 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Jamila
Thank you, sarit!

Let's talk of ways that we can further the cause of international peace with justice for EVERYONE.



Those poems are BEAUTIFUL and REALLY said more than any political discourse that we could have in this forum.

And I end with a paraphrase of Bono from 1987:

There's two sides to this story, and frankly, I'm sick of both of them.

NO MORE to war in the world and in our hearts.
A. Men. Thank you (nice quote from Bono, too-sums up pretty nicely how I feel about this whole ordeal).

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Old 07-22-2004, 01:37 AM   #21
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The Zionists have always and will always slant history to fit their ever-changing viewpoints.

When the U.N. passes a resolution they agree with - they applaud the U.N., when the U.N. disagrees with them, the U.N. must be scum.

Israel was created from land that the British had stewardship over. The Palestinian people have been oppressed by many foreign countries in history and only want what you or I would want for our families - a place to call home, their ancestral land, to live in peace and prosperity with their neighbors. They have not been allowed the basic human rights that you and I take for granted.

U2 were openly snubbed by a lot of the crowd at the Popmart concert in Tel Aviv when Bono gently brought up the issue of the rights of the Palestinians to live in dignity.

U2 are not pacificists, but THEY DO BELIEVE IN SOCIAL JUSTICE FOR EVERYONE. For people to put blinders on regarding the deplorable conditions that Palestinian people must live under and still try to relate to the message that U2 gives about Respect for others and the Right for everyone to live in Peace and Justice is plainly hypocritical.

I wonder what Bono thought when the crowd openly snubbed him. He couldn't have been happy.

And the quote from Bono regarding "the troubles" the Northern Ireland IS PERFECT for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Many people from Northern Ireland have offered the idea that the ONLY WAY to achieve peace for BOTH SIDES in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is for a peace process similar to Northern Ireland's to be established there.

If Israel wants to be a world leader, let it be a world leader in fostering peace and understanding, rather than fomenting hatred and division.

I think Bono would agree with that!
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Old 07-22-2004, 03:59 AM   #22
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I am sorry that I desire to see a two state solution where the Arab World no longer desires to see the complete and utter destruction of The Jews (PA's wording)

I am sorry that I fail to see the Evil Zionists (read, The Jews) as a bunch of Baby Killing Shylocks as the Palestinian Authorities UN Approved school textbooks insist they are.

Im sorry that the Arab armies failed outright to defeat Israel in '48. '67 and '73 then went crying to the UN to settle their problems for them.

Im sorry that I have a problem when the Jordanian millitary murders 20,000 Palestinian Refugees and everybody just forgets in order to continue to castigate Israel for unintentionally inflicting a fraction of those casualties in defensive operations against Arab Agression.

Im sorry that I cannot see a moral equivalence between gunning down a pregnant woman and launching a missile at a known and identified terrorist leader in a car.

Im Sorry that my knowledge of history extends back before the second intafada and I cannot lie to myself and just say its all a cycle of violence and Israel is equally responsible for terrorism as the Palestinians.

Im sorry that Israel has the audacity to protect its own civilians be they Jew, Christian, Muslim even if they live in the disputed territories.

Im sorry that I think that sanctioning and planning the murder of innocent civilians for a political ends is terrorism rather than the conducting of anti-terrorism operations against murderers.

Im sorry that Arafat was offered a Palestinian State in 2000 which he had to turn down because he knows that terrorism would get him more sympathy and international support.

Sorry if I think that the degree of injustice is proportional to the number of people killed, Armenian Genocide exeeded 1 million, Saddams Anfal campaign against the Kurds >100,000.

Im sorry that I believe that Armenians and Kurds are more deserving of a nation than the decendents of Arabs that settled in Palestine as the Zionists emmigrated there and made it livable.

Frankly I am sorry that so many people here are opposed to terrorism but will not condemn the last 40 years of Palestinian "Diplomacy".

Note: This objective breakdown of the casualites of the current conflict shows the facts surrounding casualties and will demonstrate why there is no equivalence between IDF operations and a Homocide Bomber.
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/artic...?articleid=439
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Old 07-22-2004, 06:18 AM   #23
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What you've just written is very intolerant, to put it mildly.

What is "they" (the Zionists)? Every person living in Israel? Every Jew? Please explain.
And "always have and always will"? You've written some very disturbing generalizations here. I live in Israel, I am Jewish. Does that make me a "history slanting Zionist"? Does that fit with the poems you've liked so much?

Those poems blame everyone involved, not just one side.

And this land is the ancestors' land of both sides, by the way.

I'm sick of people always saying "Palestinians" as opposed to "Israel". As if millions of people who live in Israel are just one entity with one opinion.
As if we don't suffer just as well. Ever thought about how it feels like taking the bus to school/work and wondering if this is the day you'll be blown to bits? With one of the buss stops on the rout completely shattered to pieces and still has blood all over the place because of yesterday's suicide attack, and you can't believe that just in the last moment you've switched to night shift otherwise you wouldn't be alive right now?
And how about looking at your year book from high school only too see all those faces you'll never see again, not in this life anyway.
Or feeling almost certain that one day it'll get to you to. The first time someone who knows someone you know is killed, than someone you know is killed. Later on a friend is murdered, not "just"an acquaintance. Then there is that time when it could have been you on that buss, or walking in that street, but you decided to switch shifts in the last moment. And you feel it getting closer each and every single time, until it will finally get to you just as well.

This is my life, and guess what? Not much fun there. We seem to be living a normal life most of the time, but it is just an appearance.

Yes, Palestinians have suffered greatly, and I do believe that they deserve their own country. But I have never heard their leaders even recognizing the existence of Israel. In Palestinians schools the maps won't mention that Israel exists either. Those books refer to the entire land as Palestine.

The occupation should end, and the PMs Israel has had over the years didn't exactly prove to be leaders rather than little politicians handling this conflict. But don't give the Palestinians the benefit of the doubt of not having any responsibility for their situation just as well.

And with all the respect that I have for u2, I don't think that they should be dragged into this argument. Their opinion is just another opinion, like everyone else's.
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:40 AM   #24
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And with all the respect that I have for u2, I don't think that they should be dragged into this argument. Their opinion is just another opinion, like everyone else's.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:26 AM   #25
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Prejudice and intolerance shrouded in half truths must be challenged and probably should be stricken from public view.

It's ONE thing to share an opinion, it's another to foment and foster misunderstanding and hatred.

Some obviously slanted and negative opinions really should have no place on this REPUTABLE U2 fansite.

THE TRUTH IS SIMPLY THE TRUTH, WHETHER IT INVOLVES U2 OR NOT.

WE'RE ONE, BUT WE'RE NOT THE SAME. WE GET TO CARRY EACH OTHER.....
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:39 AM   #26
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The truth is simply the truth, Israel has some blood on its hands because it has to deal with murderers on a daily basis. If people genuinely believed in peace then they would praise the Security Barrier for preventing bombings in a nonviolent manner then demand that Arafat resign and that the reformed Palestinian Authority accept the 2000 offer unconditionally. Israel would be safe, Palestinians would have a very good homeland and things could move forward in peace.

Terrorism is never Right so punish the Perpetrator and not the Victim.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:55 AM   #27
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You prove my point.....thanks.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:23 AM   #28
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I'm saddened to read your remarks about Israelis not having much fun, sarit, although I can only imagine how true that must be. It puts me to shame. I really should not complain about my life because I'm safe. I guess I'm just a wimp.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:29 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila
Prejudice and intolerance shrouded in half truths must be challenged and probably should be stricken from public view.

It's ONE thing to share an opinion, it's another to foment and foster misunderstanding and hatred.

Some obviously slanted and negative opinions really should have no place on this REPUTABLE U2 fansite.

THE TRUTH IS SIMPLY THE TRUTH, WHETHER IT INVOLVES U2 OR NOT.

WE'RE ONE, BUT WE'RE NOT THE SAME. WE GET TO CARRY EACH OTHER.....
"Negative opinions"? Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it's wrong.

What are those slanted and negative opinions you are talking about? Specify.

And you still didn't answer my question-who are those Zionists you are referring to? Does living in Israel and being Jewish makes me a "history slanting Zionist" automatically?
Arguing history is just fine, but this kind of statements are definitely not.

You are speaking in generalizations. The world isn't black and white. The truth is not just the truth, but the way you (or anyone else) see it.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:39 AM   #30
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Unfortunately Sarit "Zionist" is now a label that is codeword for Jew. It breaks my heart whenever I see people mask their hatred by saying that they are not anti-semitic per se but are merely anti-Zionist.

The speech patterns are always the same as any racist however they avoid being procecuted for inciting hatred because protesting against political movements is protected speech even when said political movement is really codeword an entire nation of people and protesting is advocation of their destruction (This is obviously not Jamila's view however some Muslim Clerics will incite hatred in this way). Seeing it here out of its proper context does not make me feel very good.
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