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Old 05-03-2005, 04:42 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511
to be honest, i'd rather have a calm process than the apocalyptic, good vs. evil showdowns the presidential elections have devolved into. the narrative, now, is about "the narrative" -- the horserace, who's up and who's down, and who said what and the endless, endless speculation, spinning, and punditry provided by not one, not two, but THREE 24/7 news networks.

also, the US president is more powerful politically in the US than the PM is in the UK -- so i think that there is more at stake in the US due to this fact.
Me too. I'd rather have calm, rational discource on the issues rather than these show biz deals our presidential elections are. Also, I like it that the U.K. election campaigns only last a matter of weeks and not months like ours do.
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:45 PM   #32
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60+ % of the people do not want him.
Maybe, but its not just a question of 'who' is running, but the party, and the reality is most people are not that dissatisfied with New Labour that they want to let the Tories in or the Lib Dems, who, quite frankly, aren't going to go anywhere because they have not established themselves as a credible alternative.

A lot of people are still upset with Tony Blair over the Iraq War, as am I, but I think it is dangerous to kick a Party out because of one man, when the Party has done a relatively decent job.

It would be a terrible shame to let the Tories back.

Ant.
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:04 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Anthony


Maybe, but its not just a question of 'who' is running, but the party, and the reality is most people are not that dissatisfied with New Labour that they want to let the Tories in or the Lib Dems, who, quite frankly, aren't going to go anywhere because they have not established themselves as a credible alternative.

A lot of people are still upset with Tony Blair over the Iraq War, as am I, but I think it is dangerous to kick a Party out because of one man, when the Party has done a relatively decent job.

It would be a terrible shame to let the Tories back.

Ant.
I get all that

and understand your process and why Labor (New) will win.

It is just that Blair can pursue a foreign policy that Labor
and for that matter, the rest of the country do not favor.
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:09 PM   #34
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The LibDems can say what they like because no bugger will vote them in. Don't get me wrong: I have a great deal of respect for many of their policies, but several others are, economically, unrealistic and generally unworkable.

I could also do without Howard, and a certain Mr A. Blair doesn't floatr my boat either.

It's a shame the Monster Raving Loony Party is down the pan.
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Old 05-04-2005, 05:42 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Anthony


Maybe, but its not just a question of 'who' is running, but the party, and the reality is most people are not that dissatisfied with New Labour that they want to let the Tories in or the Lib Dems, who, quite frankly, aren't going to go anywhere because they have not established themselves as a credible alternative.

A lot of people are still upset with Tony Blair over the Iraq War, as am I, but I think it is dangerous to kick a Party out because of one man, when the Party has done a relatively decent job.

It would be a terrible shame to let the Tories back.

Ant.
Ant, that is grossly incorrect to say that the Lib Dems "aren't going to go anywhere because they have not established themselves as a credible alternative." That's Labour party talk and is unfactual. Please be factual before making statements like that, especially if you're a mod. In each new election they, the Lib Dems, are gaining more and more support and more seats. In scotland they are co-running the devolved government and delivered on the promises that they are also promising the whole of the UK in this election. The election process is perverted and unrepresentative of what the country is actually voting. If seats had been won in relation to what the people voted, and not this stupid current system, then the Lib Dems would have won 117 seats and not the 47. In the current system Labour has 403 seats and the Conservatives have 170. If seats were allocated in relation to what the people voted then Labour would have just 264 and the Torys 206. More info here: http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/
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Old 05-04-2005, 06:04 AM   #36
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From the Monster Raving Loony Party 2005 Manifesto:

"Any politician wanting to start a war will be shipped off to the country in question with a bag of conkers. They can then conker the country themselves."

Best Foreign Policy Ever!!



Seriously though, I'd like to see Labour win again, but with a slim majority giving Tony and co. a real wake-up call. In the interest of the future of the party, he should quit (or be forced to quit if necessary) and Gordon should be given a chance.
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Old 05-04-2005, 06:50 AM   #37
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isn't something like 36% of the electorate still undecided?
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:07 AM   #38
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36% of the electorate, or whatever the percentage is, are likely to be Liberal Democrats that know that because of the unjust electoral system "there's no point voting".

The current member of parliament for my constituency is the Scottish Secretary of State (a major Labour goverment minisiter). He is one of those "safe seats". Because of the crap electoral system my vote could be considered wasted on the Liberal Democrats. Whereas if seats where allocated by share of the national vote then my vote would mean something.
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:55 AM   #39
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Well, Ewen, if you want to discuss facts I refer you to every single poll thats come out in the last month, and for the last ten years for that matter, in England - not Scotland. From what I can see they have been making great progress there, not so (unfortunately, I would add) in the rest of the UK.

Quote:
Please be factual before making statements like that, especially if you're a mod. In each new election they, the Lib Dems, are gaining more and more support and more seats.
It is a fact that they have been gaining support with each election, but they have not gone anywhere in the sense that they're not yet a credible threat for the Tories.

Of course its inaccurate, but I don't think its unfair or incorrect to say that the Lib Dems won't gain 'that' much more of the vote. It isn't grossly inaccurate to state that the Lib Dems have consistently stayed, at best, in the mid twenties of the electorate percentage for a very long time now. My comment was pessimistic, true - but the fact remains; they're still going to come third after the Tories on Election day. I will personally buy you a drink if I'm wrong.

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Old 05-04-2005, 08:59 AM   #40
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Originally posted by ewen
36% of the electorate, or whatever the percentage is, are likely to be Liberal Democrats that know that because of the unjust electoral system "there's no point voting".

The current member of parliament for my constituency is the Scottish Secretary of State (a major Labour goverment minisiter). He is one of those "safe seats". Because of the crap electoral system my vote could be considered wasted on the Liberal Democrats. Whereas if seats where allocated by share of the national vote then my vote would mean something.


are you on the payroll?

i found this interesting ... "Assuming Labour wins, it will be the seventh victory in a row for Margaret Thatcher. It will deliver her a round 30 years of supremacy over British government, equalling the epoch of Attlee’s welfare socialism after 1945. Labour’s manifesto is a Thatcherite classic: adventurism abroad and progressive privatisation at home, moral partiality bolted on to an ever-expanding nanny State. The consensus is well illustrated in the near-identical proposals for public services from Labour and Conservatives. Both have pandered to middle-class insecurity. They have used fear, crime, discipline and control as leitmotifs and promised to curb civil liberty and make the welfare state increasingly optional. Baroness Thatcher may have disappeared to Venice for the duration, but she can look back on this campaign with pride. She destroyed the Social Democrats, she destroyed old Labour and, in stimulating the creation of new Labour, she has all but destroyed the Tories." -- Simon Jenkins
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Old 05-04-2005, 09:14 AM   #41
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Originally posted by Anthony
Well, Ewen, if you want to discuss facts I refer you to every single poll thats come out in the last month, and for the last ten years for that matter, in England - not Scotland. From what I can see they have been making great progress there, not so (unfortunately, I would add) in the rest of the UK.



It is a fact that they have been gaining support with each election, but they have not gone anywhere in the sense that they're not yet a credible threat for the Tories.

Of course its inaccurate, but I don't think its unfair or incorrect to say that the Lib Dems won't gain 'that' much more of the vote. It isn't grossly inaccurate to state that the Lib Dems have consistently stayed, at best, in the mid twenties of the electorate percentage for a very long time now. My comment was pessimistic, true - but the fact remains; they're still going to come third after the Tories on Election day. I will personally buy you a drink if I'm wrong.

Ant.
I'm sorry Ant, you are still incorrect. If you are going to say "look at the facts" then please state "the facts". If you are going to mention polls and say "I refer you to every single poll thats come out in the last month" then can I suggest that you too actually look at those polls in which you are asking me to refer to.

All current opinion polls place Liberal Democrats only a few percent behind the Conservatives, with support for the Lib Dems on the increase and support for the Conservatives falling. The MORI poll has the Conservatives falling from 33% on the 1st May to 29% yesterday. The Lib Dems are at 22% on that poll. The "Independant on sunday" had the tories falling from 35% to 31% (24th April to 1st May) and the Lib Dems increasing from 18% to 23% for the same period.

It is on-going, negative Labour campaigning that keeps them coming out with the same old rubbish every election "don't vote Lib Dems because it's a wasted vote". A Labour cabinet minister recentley said something along the lines of "vote for Mr Nice [Charles Kennedy - Lib Dems] on Thursday, wake up with Mr Nasty [Howard - Conservatives] on Friday".

And Ant, of course the Libs will come third this Thursday - no need to be patronising. I'm, ashamedly, too pessimistic to think otherwise. It's simply because of the terrible electoral system which forces people to vote strategically or not at all - hence one of the reasons why turn out is so bad. It doesn't take a genious to work out that those people who are not voting aren't happy with either Labour or Conservatives and feel that if they vote for "the real alternative" (the Lib Dems) that the party won't get into power so what's the point. There's also the FACTS that Tony Blair AND his party have continuously lied and not delivered on their promises to this country.

Again, facts show that the Lib Dems would have had 117 seats in Parliment last election and the Conservatives would have had 170 - if seats were won in relation to the national vote. If the system was fairer then likely more Lib Dem supporters would have turned out and the party would have at least have been the main opposition.
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Old 05-04-2005, 12:28 PM   #42
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I'm sorry, Ewen, but this all started because you didn't like my comment 'frankly I don't see the Lib Dems going anywhere'. Maybe I should have been more precise; frankly, I don't see the Lib Dems beating the Tories, and I don't see them beating Labour in 'this' election'. That may not be a fact as of yet, but I can be pretty sure that it will be very soon.

When I referred to Polls, I literally do mean every daily Poll that is quoted on every News channel, placing the Lib Dems third. I really do not have the time to go and look for Polls that I've seen on TV, and really, I don't have the inclination - I've seen them and so have you, judging from the MORI poll you quoted; most of them do place the Lib Dems third. My observation was that they would stay at third. I have absolutely no disagreements as to the unfair electoral system and I accept all your arguments; I honestly don't see why you're so wound up by an idle comment.

It was not my intention to be patronising, I was trying to avert what seemed to be a heated comment directed at me. Indeed, I have had too many a conversation with my friends (I am a student, and as you may know students favour the Lib Dems at the moment), and I have seen many people who do actually believe that they will beat the Tories and become the main opposition. Now, I don't know if that naive or not, and I sure didn't know what your position is - my prerogative was not to patronise your position in the slightest. I make no assumptions as to what people know or don't know.

Quote:
There's also the FACTS that Tony Blair AND his party have continuously lied and not delivered on their promises to this country.
I have no false illusions what Tony Blair has done. We all know he lied; I knew it the moment he opened his mouth whenever he was referring to Iraq. The Iraq War is another issue, however, and I'm guessing you may be more interested in discussing domestic policies, and that is where I think I may disagree with you.

Primarily, when it comes to politics, there are very few 'facts' - if it were that easy then voting would be a thousand times easier. The way I see it, Labour have delivered in some respects and downright failed in others, as most politicians and parties do. In terms of policies, I find myself agreeing with the Liberal Democrats more than New Labour, I must say. However, you may believe that I am not voting Lib Dems because of the beliefe that it is a wasted vote (which you are correct in pointing out, a lot of people think that), but that is incorrect. I choose not to vote Lib Dems because I don't agree with the idea of scrapping Tuition fees altogether, believe in targets for the NHS, support the idea of compulsory I.D. cards and don't approve of the idea of local income tax at all.

Ant.
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Old 05-04-2005, 01:15 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Anthony
I'm sorry, Ewen, but this all started because you didn't like my comment 'frankly I don't see the Lib Dems going anywhere'. Maybe I should have been more precise; frankly, I don't see the Lib Dems beating the Tories, and I don't see them beating Labour in 'this' election'. That may not be a fact as of yet, but I can be pretty sure that it will be very soon.
And I'm pretty sure you're indeed going to be right...the Lib Dems will be beaten by the Tories and Labour.....unfortunately. Again, all because of the unfair electoral system.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
When I referred to Polls, I literally do mean every daily Poll that is quoted on every News channel, placing the Lib Dems third. I really do not have the time to go and look for Polls that I've seen on TV, and really, I don't have the inclination - I've seen them and so have you, judging from the MORI poll you quoted; most of them do place the Lib Dems third. My observation was that they would stay at third. I have absolutely no disagreements as to the unfair electoral system and I accept all your arguments; I honestly don't see why you're so wound up by an idle comment.
[/b]
Because you stated that the Liberal Democrats are not making any gains in the UK as a whole and based your opinion on the opinion polls. the opinion polls, which you brought up, indicate the opposite of what you are saying and I suggested therefore that to make such a claim that you look at the opinion polls again.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
It was not my intention to be patronising, I was trying to avert what seemed to be a heated comment directed at me. Indeed, I have had too many a conversation with my friends (I am a student, and as you may know students favour the Lib Dems at the moment), and I have seen many people who do actually believe that they will beat the Tories and become the main opposition. Now, I don't know if that naive or not, and I sure didn't know what your position is - my prerogative was not to patronise your position in the slightest. I make no assumptions as to what people know or don't know.



I have no false illusions what Tony Blair has done. We all know he lied; I knew it the moment he opened his mouth whenever he was referring to Iraq. The Iraq War is another issue, however, and I'm guessing you may be more interested in discussing domestic policies, and that is where I think I may disagree with you.

Primarily, when it comes to politics, there are very few 'facts' - if it were that easy then voting would be a thousand times easier. The way I see it, Labour have delivered in some respects and downright failed in others, as most politicians and parties do. In terms of policies, I find myself agreeing with the Liberal Democrats more than New Labour, I must say. However, you may believe that I am not voting Lib Dems because of the beliefe that it is a wasted vote (which you are correct in pointing out, a lot of people think that), but that is incorrect. I choose not to vote Lib Dems because I don't agree with the idea of scrapping Tuition fees altogether, believe in targets for the NHS, support the idea of compulsory I.D. cards and don't approve of the idea of local income tax at all.

Ant. [/B]
I respect your reasons not to vote Lib Dems, that's your right. I have no problem with that. My problem was with your comments that the Lib Dems "who, quite frankly, aren't going to go anywhere because they have not established themselves as a credible alternative" and of course the false opinion poll claim you made. Are you telling me that Scotland is being run (sorry, co-run) by a party that doesn't know what it's doing?




btw, i'm not being angry Ant, I have no personal problem with you. you seem a nice guy. my words may come across aggressively but believe me I'm not being that way in this particular discussion. i just want the facts to be factual. i hope we can continue the discussion knowing that.
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Old 05-04-2005, 01:31 PM   #44
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Because you stated that the Liberal Democrats are not making any gains in the UK as a whole and based your opinion on the opinion polls. the opinion polls, which you brought up, indicate the opposite of what you are saying and I suggested therefore that to make such a claim that you look at the opinion polls again.
Forgive me, but that was not what I meant at all. As I explained in my previous post, when I made that comment I was referring to their chances of winning, and that was it - I even conceded in my very first post that they were making gains, just not enough to give them a winning ticket. I didn't say that they would gain none of the vote, I said that they wouldn't gain 'that much'. And yes, I too have been studying the Polls, even the MORI poll, and yes even I can see that they have been making gains.

When I said that I don't think they have established themselves as a credible alternative, it was purely because of some of their policies - I do not seem them as the 'nice party'. The Conservatives have identified the issues which Labour are probably considered weak in by the majority, but have failed to provide any real alternatives. The Lib Dems, for my part, have identified some issues which I don't believe New Labour is weaker in. To be fair, I don't think that many people are bothered about tuition fees and their proposals for local income tax, but thats just me. THis is why, I think, the Lib Dems have failed in establishing themselves as, as they claim, The Real Alternative. Its a pity, because I actually like the sound of many of their policies.

We can indeed continue discussing factually, I just want to make it clear that I never alluded to any facts, just observations. All I meant to say was that the Lib Dems are in third place and will probably be in third place for this election, and the opinion polls do back me up on that. The observations were not, therefore, unfounded.

Just for the record I don't think Scotland is being co-run by a party that doesn't know what its doing, but, and I do mean this respectfully, Scotland is unique in its position, and I for one find it difficult to see where the failures of Labour end and the succeses of the Liberal Democrats begin when it comes to the Scottish case study. That is purely out of ignorance, however. I know you have posted some information already, but any chance you can inform me more?


Ant.
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Old 05-04-2005, 01:53 PM   #45
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You seem to be swinging more than Peter Snow's swingometer now Ant. You say that you look at the polls and then you say that you have no inclination to look at the polls. It's confusing, do you follow them or not?

By the way, calling Scotland's devolved parliament "a case study" proves exactly one of the reasons why Scotland indeed had to have a devolved parliament...ignorance by a large majority of people in the south of England; who have no idea, or care, of what goes on in the rest of the country (the UK as a whole, not just Scotland). It's not a "case study", it's a devolved parliament. If it had any more powers, Scotland would be an independent country! gah!

Please read up on your facts anthony before carrying on this discussion. have a good night.
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