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Old 12-14-2001, 06:28 PM   #16
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
You now hate America because of things that happened before you were born?
You mean we AREN'T supposed to realize that retrospect is 20/20? I think you might be asking too much...



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Old 12-14-2001, 06:32 PM   #17
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That does it! I'm moving to a country where the government is completely open and honest and always does everything above-board all of the time, 100%.

Now.

Hmm....where to go. There are so many choices.

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Old 12-14-2001, 07:45 PM   #18
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Actually, the U.S. government does enough things to deserve distrust and dislike NOW.

One good example: the New York Times and other sources reported last week that the "high grade" anthrax floating around the United States and killing people is identical to that made by the U.S.'s biological weapons program. Not the Soviet's program (despite the thousand newspaper articles about how their weapons are escaping since the USSR breakdown) or Iraq's program (despite the million articles about how "dangerous" Saddam is to us now).

Some of you who believe so strongly in the morality/honesty of the U.S. government please answer me this simple 2-part question: A) Is there any use for weaponized anthrax other than to wipe out a civilian population?; and B) What business does the U.S. or anyone else have making it?
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Old 12-14-2001, 07:51 PM   #19
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Originally posted by sv:
One good example: the New York Times and other sources
i don't know about your other sources but the NY Times is tough to trust.

www.smartertimes.com

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Old 12-14-2001, 07:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by sv:
B) What business does the U.S. or anyone else have making it?
How do you make an antidote to a disease? I'm not exactly sure, but I would guess that one way would be to have limited amounts of the virus/bacteria on hand. Whether or not that's true, I don't know. But it's a possibility, yes?
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Old 12-14-2001, 08:00 PM   #21
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Old 12-15-2001, 01:57 AM   #22
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The "but it was 40 years ago!" argument doesn't hold water. Taken from the article:

"These were Joint Chiefs of Staff Documents. THE REASON THEY WERE HELD SECRET FOR SO LONG IS THE JOINT CHIEFS NEVER WANTED TO GIVE THESE UP BECAUSE THEY WERE SO EMBARRASSING..."

In other words any equivalent treachery and evil planned or committed during the Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton or Dubya administrations probably won't be brought to light for years, if ever.

That the United States Military would plot to murder American citizens, John Glenn, American military personnel and Cuban refugees because they felt U.S. politicians such as Kennedy were "too Liberal" is stunning really. It certainly serves as a reminder of how badly the Joint Chiefs wanted Kennedy to start a nuclear war with the U.S.S.R. during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Sadly, President Kennedy was "too liberal" to precipitate the destruction of human civilization. It's something of a bummer isn't it?

Are any of the conservative Interferencers out there appalled by these revelations or does your moral outrage only extend to liberal indiscretions?

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Old 12-15-2001, 02:54 AM   #23
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Yeep, if that happened (and that's a big IF), it happened 40 years ago - long before you were born, probably. So what is your point? You now hate America because of things that happened before you were born?
What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?

Does it even begin to matter if it happened a year before I was born or 20? Our government planned to commit mass murder and terrorism on a scale that would make Al-Queda blush. Why shouldn't I care? What garuntee do I have that this shit is not going on now?

Quote:
And I do have basis for that. Every post you make, you see as an opportunity to slam America. Same with Doctor Gonzo. Same with that Patti Jones person
Maybe because in the U.S, the average person hears all day how superfantasticwonderful the U.S is, and how it is "defending freedom", the "leader of the free world", how we never would stoop so low as to become like Osama Bin Laden and how morally superior we are to terrorists, etc, etc, etc.

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Because this idea was totally shot down, I have to believe that this type of plan is the exception rather than the rule.
Pick up a copy of What Uncle Sam Really Wants by Noam Chomsky. He simply takes offical U.S government documents and tells you what they say. You will be utterly amazed at all the things that are spelled out quite plainly in government papers, known throughout the rest of the world, but are utterly ignored in the U.S.

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What Gonzon and Spano are missing in their broad painting of the government as untrustworthy is that the government actually choose not to implement those plans. If anything, this would seem like an example of our government working.
The fact our government conspired to kill us to launch a war says a lot about it, regardless of who said "no" to it.

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Oh my dear Dr. Gonzo.. Bringing in such a hugely old .. over forty years .. topic, in order to make your point..
What would be an acceptable time frame for you, anyway? I fear that you would simply dismiss anything that didn't happen yesterday. I believe the 1960s are sufficently recent to make this a very vaild example of how our government works.

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No one here is saying that they Blindly trust the government, but I don't think that we'er out of line by saying that the govt that is in the seat right now, is looking out for our best interest as a country..
Shredding the very values we base our nation on, and engaging in the kind of practices we mock other nations for is hardly "looking our for our best interest". If we undermine what the nation is based on, then we are fighting for a worthless, empty shell of a state that only exists for the sake of existing.

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If they have to withhold data, or even give a bit of a fib here or there.. It's ok, Like i've said in many of my posts.. Americans, should not be so needy for information..
The nation was built on the distrust of government. Every branch was designed to overlap onto another, and public scruitny and criticism was encouraged as one of the founding principles of the United States. It prevents tyranny and the very kinds of things that are the subject of this thread.

Americans should be "needy for information". That is the very idea behind our system of government.

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the gov't should just handle teh war, and just let us know when its done, there is a responsibility of the gov't to not run amok or fall to enormous amounts of shady tactics, or behind the wire dealings,
You want a Fast Food Government.

"Give me the results, don't bother me with the details, get it done fast and without it directly affecting me too much".

I'm sorry, apathy breeds tyranny. Constant vigilence is required to maintain a free and fair nation. And more importantly, one with some semblance of decency and basic morals.

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but let's face it, some bad shit is needed in order to accompolish things.. I
That is a common rationale behind many atrocities througout history.

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I wouldn't be thrilled if we blew upone of our marine squadrons.. but let's face it, that never happened,
Well, by a stroke of luck, it didn't.

The leaders of our millitary tried to make it happen.

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Did you live during that time... did you sit in your living room while Cuba had a nuclear missle pointing our way with russia.. No.. neither did I..
Somehow the concept that the ends do not always justify the means has escaped you.

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Anyways, it didn't happen...
Second time you've said this, but it doesn't change the fact that it was being planned and lobbied to the administration. The fact that the millitary would even attempt to do such a thing is an indictment of them.

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I assume you are the 'mysterious arab league' who is calling the tape a forged document..
When did I become a collection of Arabs?

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Well, Let's start a petition here on Interference so Dr. Gonzo can buy an official interpreter.. Have you ever seen goonies with Mouth and teh Spanish Housekeeper.. May you be blessed with such a one when you travel to a foreign country...
Why are you bringing the Osama Bin Laden video into this discussion as if I had mentioned it? Sorry, try again.

Quote:
Let's all congratulate Gonzo on his six hours of internet search time for bringing such an issue to our eyes. Thank you Gonzo. This was something i didn't know, and an article i read with interest.
Your juvinile attempt to mock me has humilated you in front of the rest of the forum.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 12-14-2001).]
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Old 12-15-2001, 03:15 AM   #24
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Regarding the ABC story:
Un-be-freakin-leavable!

I have to say that I thought that all these conspiracy theories out there had absolutely no basis. Well, I now see I was wrong. This is insane.
But I should also say that this by no means leads me to distrust ALL of our government's actions. Because this idea was totally shot down, I have to believe that this type of plan is the exception rather than the rule.

Regarding the rest of the discussion in here:
Be nice.
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Old 12-15-2001, 09:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:

Are any of the conservative Interferencers out there appalled by these revelations or does your moral outrage only extend to liberal indiscretions?
I'm appalled by these revelations, but not too surprised. And I'm glad Kennedy was a sensible person (in this instance, anyway).

Oh, and Dr. Gonzo--learn to spell, dammit. "Guarantee" and "juvenile" and "vigilance" are all misspelled in your post. The atrocities you have committed against the English language are outrageous.


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Old 12-15-2001, 10:11 AM   #26
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Originally posted by speedracer:
I'm appalled by these revelations, but not too surprised. And I'm glad Kennedy was a sensible person (in this instance, anyway).

I too am quite turned off that these things were even planned.. I wrote that above.. but when I refer to the 'needy information', I am referring to this constant desire to know EVERY single aspect of the war, like the 'intelligence' data that has been shown to many of this world's premier leaders and been confirmed.. yet Americans are 'trashing' the presidency for not releasing something that they say is in the nation's best interest to keep a lid on.. THis is what I refer to when I talk about 'not sharing information'.. I tend to believe in the Men In Black style of governing for a large majority of issues.. That any little concern will set our nation in a free for all of panic.. The tyranny is not in the picture because there is enough information coming to the general folk, as well as the other branches of the gov't to check on one another... It is hardly apathy gonz. when if extreme clamoring for interest in evidence or some other piece of news is going to hurt our national security..

And my dear gonz, I appreciate your ideas and thoughts, I acknowledge you've got some good points.. and some bad ones.. this time some ok ones.. but the vehemence behind your words seems to be nonproductive...or at least witless... and for some reason I didn't convey that my views were not as extreme on this issue as I had written.. I love the keyboard.. I'll be seeing you for round two... I suggest the second Stall with the broken flush handle...

OFf to take my second Final.. Yippee

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Old 12-15-2001, 11:15 AM   #27
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Yeep, if that happened (and that's a big IF), it happened 40 years ago - long before you were born, probably. So what is your point? You now hate America because of things that happened before you were born?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.Gonzo wrote:
What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?
Does it even begin to matter if it happened a year before I was born or 20? Our government planned to commit mass murder and terrorism on a scale that would make Al-Queda blush. Why shouldn't I care? What garuntee do I have that this shit is not going on now?

80sU2isBest:
Doctor Gonzo, you are something else. And that's being nice. You are a complete enigma. I will never ever understand you. This was NOT a plan devised by the US government. It was devised by certain people in teh government but quickly shot down by superiors. Now, I ask you again - are you going to hold it against the goevernment for a bad plan that was devised by people who were obviously lunatics, but then rightfully rejected by their calmer, more rational supervisors - all over 40 years ago?
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Old 12-15-2001, 11:20 AM   #28
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This is one of the funniest threads I have every read.

Can we do an age check so I can put some perspective on this discussion?
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Old 12-15-2001, 01:33 PM   #29
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While we're in the subject of Cuba, the United States released a list of countries that support terrorism and one of them is Cuba. I just find that ridiculous. While I do not support Castro I00%, I have to give credit to Cuba for being the first country to have openly speaken to create an International Coalition against terrorism (check out the United Nations site in the General Assembly section). Of course, Cuba, being an unimportant country, wasn't heard by the international medias. Also, Cuba sent help in the United States for the victims of the World Trade Center Attacks. That passed unmentionned by the medias, of course. I don't quite believe that Cuba wants to destroy the United States, by helping them in crisis situations like what happened on Sept. II. I know a Cuban spy was being arrested and is subject to prison for life, but every country uses spies. It is to remember that the CIA drops bacteriological stuff on the Cuban Agricultural fields, making devastations (in '97, Cuba lost half of his bovine production).

It is not hating the US for what they did 40 years ago "before we were born". History is important and no one must reject it. While we can't do anything for something that happened 40 years ago, we can still remember and it still does play an important fact regarding the Cuban / USA political relations. It is not because Cuba openly speaks out (check again the United Nations debates) against the politics of the United States that Cuba wants to destroy it. And it is not by the Helms Law that the USA will calm things down. In this debate, every fact is important.

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Old 12-15-2001, 01:57 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Holy John:
While we're in the subject of Cuba, the United States released a list of countries that support terrorism and one of them is Cuba. I just find that ridiculous. While I do not support Castro I00%, I have to give credit to Cuba for being the first country to have openly speaken to create an International Coalition against terrorism (check out the United Nations site in the General Assembly section). Of course, Cuba, being an unimportant country, wasn't heard by the international medias. Also, Cuba sent help in the United States for the victims of the World Trade Center Attacks. That passed unmentionned by the medias, of course. I don't quite believe that Cuba wants to destroy the United States, by helping them in crisis situations like what happened on Sept. II. I know a Cuban spy was being arrested and is subject to prison for life, but every country uses spies. It is to remember that the CIA drops bacteriological stuff on the Cuban Agricultural fields, making devastations (in '97, Cuba lost half of his bovine production).

It is not hating the US for what they did 40 years ago "before we were born". History is important and no one must reject it. While we can't do anything for something that happened 40 years ago, we can still remember and it still does play an important fact regarding the Cuban / USA political relations. It is not because Cuba openly speaks out (check again the United Nations debates) against the politics of the United States that Cuba wants to destroy it. And it is not by the Helms Law that the USA will calm things down. In this debate, every fact is important.

Cheers


I will say this about history and what not.. as I have written this before, but Man is the only animal that does not learn from its mistakes, Wars happen over and over again for teh same reasons, but there never is, and most likely never will be a solution, And going back through history, mankind in general, has made the same errors, and they have caused teh same problems now that they did three hundred years ago.. except a musket was drawn.. powdered.. packed.. aimed.. then aimed again to account for the wind.. then aimed again to account for teh bent barrel, then fired, whereas, now people just pull a nine or an AK and fire freely...

In this respect I do honor history... Well.. that and Ms. Hepburn
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