The Toll Grows Higher and Higher -6,100 to 7,800 have been killed. - U2 Feedback

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Old 09-21-2003, 03:48 PM   #1
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The Toll Grows Higher and Higher -6,100 to 7,800 have been killed.

I do not believe in "Us against Them"

It is only "Us against Us"



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Although the U.S. military does not keep track of civilian casualties, a survey of news accounts by the nonprofit group Iraqbodycount.org indicates that 6,100 to 7,800 Iraqi civilians been have killed during the U.S. military campaign since March. A Times survey of Baghdad-area hospitals in May estimated that at least 1,700 Iraqi civilians died and more than 8,000 were wounded in the battle for the capital.

More recent deaths include the shooting of a 14-year-old boy at a wedding ceremony Thursday and of five Baghdad residents at an unannounced Army checkpoint in late July.

Erroneous shootings have fanned the anger toward U.S. troops in Iraq. A member of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council said last week that most Iraqis were discontented with the U.S.-led forces because they "treat the Iraqi people with violence and contempt."


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To many Americans, Iraqis are clannish, inscrutable strangers who fail to appreciate the U.S. troops who fought and died to liberate them. Worse, they are potential assassins or human bombs.


To many Iraqis, Americans seem remote, hostile, unpredictable and utterly ignorant of Iraqis' language and customs.
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Old 09-21-2003, 05:07 PM   #2
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There are no translators in Iraq! That's crazy. How can we communicate with them without people who speak Arabic?
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Old 09-21-2003, 05:26 PM   #3
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Re: The Toll Grows Higher and Higher -6,100 to 7,800 have been killed.

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Originally posted by deep
I do not believe in "Us against Them"

More recent deaths include the shooting of a 14-year-old boy at a wedding ceremony Thursday and of five Baghdad residents at an unannounced Army checkpoint in late July.


When I hear stuff like this, I have no idea how to respond. It is utterly mind blowing.

I feel angry and impotent.
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Old 09-21-2003, 06:13 PM   #4
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There is no reliable statistic on the number of Iraqi civilians killed in fighting. Prior to the fall of Baghdad, the Saddam's regime figure was 1,400 , a figure bound to be inflated. In addition, any simple list from a hospital often will not be able to reliably say whether the victim died as a result of Iraqi Military, Civilian, Coalition forces, or some other factor.

Republican Guard forces often herded civilians into area's around potential targets as the coalition advanced on Baghdad.

One of my best friends who is a Cobra Helicopter Pilot and is stationed in Southern Iraq and Kuwait, just recently got the opportunity to do some flying over Baghdad. He was amazed at the remains of the precision bombing strikes that left Government buildings totally destroyed, but left buildings next to them totally unscathed.

Mass graves containing the estimated 1 million Iraqi's murdered during Saddam's reign in power continue to be found.
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Old 09-22-2003, 04:03 AM   #5
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Well...one wonders how we really know anything then.

Yes, Sting2, Saddam is muderous bastard.
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Old 09-22-2003, 04:36 AM   #6
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STING2: you are right, Mr. Hussein was much worse than Mr. Bush.

But you know that precicion bombing isn't 100% acurate, as far as i remember it was about 70% of the precicion bombs who hit their target exactly. The other 30% can result in colateral damage.
Also there is the risk of bad information. If your Missile hits exactly where you targeted it to but the target was based on wrong or outdated informations you can still kill hundreds of civilians.
Then there were cluster bombs which arn't precicion bombing at all.
And - not to forget - the terrible accidents. For example the killed Policemen where US troops thought they were attacked while the Policemen tried to hunt down a terrorist (Trikkit).

A war without killing innocent civilians is still a hope for the future. This war was much better than some of us expected, but it was still worse than the things we could see at the US-Military propaganda videos.

Anyway, we can't turn back time and undo the mistakes which have bin made. The only thing we can do is analyze the things that went wrong to make them less likely in the future.

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Old 09-22-2003, 06:23 AM   #7
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"please, please, why did you shoot my son? We are celebrating his sister's wedding? What threat was he?"

"Sorry about the mistake ma'am, you have my heartfelt condolances. Ma'am you must realise that Saddam killed 1 million people. So do you understand why you child is an acceptable casualty? I have a nice chart with all the numbers and figures, it should explain everything and ease your suffering. This is why it's okay that I killed your son."

"Oh, sorry to bother you soldier. I didn't realise. Thanks for the liberation!"
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Old 09-22-2003, 01:25 PM   #8
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I tend to believe IraqiBodyCount and personal observations over anyone else.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle4793.htm

On the walls of the city mortuary, families have for weeks left photographs of those who have simply disappeared. "We lost Mr Abdul-emir al-Noor al-Moussawi last Wednesday, 11 June, 2003, in Baghdad," it says beneath the photograph of a dignified man in suit and tie. "He is 71 years old. Hair white. Wearing a grey dishdash. A reward will be paid to anyone with information." Or there is 16-year-old Beida Jaffer Sadr, a schoolgirl apparently kidnapped in Baghdad - her story has already been told in The Independent - whose father's telephone number is printed below her picture. "Blond hair, brown eyes, wearing a black skirt," it says.

The occupation powers, the so-called "Provisional Coalition Authority", love statistics when they are useful. They can tell you the number of newly re-opened schools, newly appointed doctors and the previous day's oil production in seconds. The daily slaughter of Iraq's innocents, needless to say, is not among their figures. So here are a few statistics. On Wednesday of last week, the Baghdad city morgue received 19 corpses, of which 11 were victims of gunfire. The next day, the morticians received 11 dead, of whom five had been killed by bullets. In May, approximately 300 murder victims were brought to the morgue, in June around 500, in July 600, last month about 700. In all of July of last year - under Saddam's regime - Dr Abdullah Razak, the deputy head of the morgue, says that only 21 gunshot victims were brought in.

Of course, it's possible to put a gloss on all this. Saddam ruled through terror. If there was security in Baghdad under his regime, there was mass murder in Kurdistan and in the Shia south of Iraq. Tens of thousands have been found in the mass graves of Iraq, men - and women - who had no death certificates, no funerals, no justice. At the Abu Ghraib prison, the head doctor, Hussain Majid - who has been reappointed by the prison's new American guards - told me that when "security prisoners" were hanged at night, he was ordered not to issue death certificates.

It might be argued that under the previous regime, the government committed the crimes. Now, the people commit them. How can the Americans be held to account for honour killings? But they are accountable, for it is the duty of the occupying power to protect the people under their control. The mandate of the CPA requires it to care for the people of Iraq. And they don't care.

None of the above statistics take into account the hundreds of shooting incidents in which the victims are wounded rather than killed. In the Kindi hospital, for example, I come across a man whose father was caretaker of a factory. "Looters came and he opened fire on them and then the Americans came and shot my father because he was holding his gun," he said. "He's had two operations, and he'll live. But no one came to see us. No one came to say sorry. Nobody cared."

One of the most recent corpses to arrive is that of Saad Mohamed Sultan. He was an official interpreter for the occupying powers and was, incredibly, shot dead by an American soldier on a convoy as he travelled with an Italian diplomat to Mosul. After shooting him, the Americans drove calmly on. They didn't bother to stop to find out who they'd killed. Saad was 35. He had a wife and two children.


This doesn't take into account those dying from bad water, lack of food and medicines.
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Old 09-22-2003, 01:53 PM   #9
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I think some people in the US simply can't imagine these high number of death civilians, because the media dosn't report about many "accidents" in the US which are reported in other countries.
Many people trust their government (which isn't a bad thing in general). And as long as the government dosn't publish any numbers of the "colaterale damage" they don't think about the thousands of dead men, women and children - so the tactics of the Pentagon works

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Old 09-22-2003, 04:45 PM   #10
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iacrobat,

Detailed forensic studies of the victims can help to determine how they died and from what. This was done in Jenin back in the Spring of 2002. Palestinians, Europeans and others claimed that Israel had massacred 7,000 Civilians at Jenin. The UN forensic teams later determined that only 48 civilians had been killed, and none had been executed but appeared to have died as result of being caught in the crossfire between Israely troops and Palestinian terrorist. Its not perfect, but news media reports are so often inaccurate. A Mass Grave with thousands of bodies tells the real story. These are being found in multiple area's of Iraq and tell the true story of Saddam's brutality which is too often ignored by many.
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Old 09-22-2003, 05:10 PM   #11
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Klaus,


"you are right, Mr. Hussein was much worse than Mr. Bush."

I'm shocked you would even compare the two.


"But you know that precicion bombing isn't 100% acurate, as far as i remember it was about 70% of the precicion bombs who hit their target exactly. The other 30% can result in colateral damage."
"Also there is the risk of bad information. If your Missile hits exactly where you targeted it to but the target was based on wrong or outdated informations you can still kill hundreds of civilians."

This is true to a certain extent but the accuracy of precicion bombing has improved greatly since the 1991 Gulf War and in the War in 2003, the accuracy of the precision weapons appears to have been above 99%. Thanks to those who voted for increase in defense spending which allowed for new and more accurate technology to be used in these precision weapons there by saving more civilian lives.

"Then there were cluster bombs which arn't precicion bombing at all."

This is not entirely true since the scatter area for cluster bomb units is not that large compared to the entire battlefield. Cluster Bombs will be used on a specific area targeting an enemy force in that area. Also, depending on the type of cluster bomb used, some seek out armored targets specifically.

"And - not to forget - the terrible accidents. For example the killed Policemen where US troops thought they were attacked while the Policemen tried to hunt down a terrorist (Trikkit)."

This was a terrible accident that could have happened in any setting, time or place.

"A war without killing innocent civilians is still a hope for the future. This war was much better than some of us expected, but it was still worse than the things we could see at the US-Military propaganda videos."

The US Military is not engaged in propaganda. The US Military has shown video's of friendly fire incidents contrary to liberals who believe the Military only shows one side of the story.


"I think some people in the US simply can't imagine these high number of death civilians, because the media dosn't report about many "accidents" in the US which are reported in other countries.
Many people trust their government (which isn't a bad thing in general). And as long as the government dosn't publish any numbers of the "colaterale damage" they don't think about the thousands of dead men, women and children - so the tactics of the Pentagon works"

In terms of war, even the alleged claims by "Iraqibodycount.com", are very low. Far lower than most European and Anti-War advocates predicted prior to the start of the war. Most of them were projecting that over 900,000 Iraqi civilians would die in the war. They were grossly wrong on this point. Rather than Americans not being able to imagine the number of people that have died, it seems to be liberal organizations and Europeans can't imagine that there projections were so widely off the mark.

The allegations made against the Israely Defense Force and its conduct in Jenin and the results of the Jenin actions closely follow the same allegations made against the US Government and US military. These organizations and groups were proven wrong in the Jenin case as well as their pre-Iraq war predictions.
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Old 09-22-2003, 05:35 PM   #12
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Scarletwine,

1.7 million died because of Saddam's rule. Have you ever thought about how many Iraqi's would have died if Saddam had continued to rule for the past 6 months? The statistics for murder cited in Baghdad currently would be a tiny fraction of the number.

The idea that Iraq was supposed to turn into Orlando Florida when Saddam was overthrown is the greatest myth being spread by those opposed to the invasion to begin with. Iraq was a third world country with all the problems many third world countries have. In addition it had been subjected to Saddam's brutal rule over the past 24 years that killed over a million Iraqi's.

The place where my good friend is stationed in Iraq, the people don't have electricity, plumbing, or any of the things most people have taken for granted in the 20th century. But this is the way life has always been in these area's. People live the same way their ancestors did over a thousand years ago. Thats the reality outside of Baghdad. The one person to blame for this is Saddam. Saddam could have invested in development of these area's, but he put the countries resources into fighting and attacking his neighbors instead of that.

Because of the Bush Administrations polices, these people have the best opportunity to become apart of the 21st century that they ever had. Had the opponents of the war succeeding in their goals of preventing it, Saddam would have continued his reign in power and the suffering of the people, primarily outside of Baghdad would have continued.

"This doesn't take into account those dying from bad water, lack of food and medicines."

Most Iraqi people have been dealing with this for centuries. It is not something that can be fixed overnight. Nation building and all that it requires is something that takes years if not decades.
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Old 09-22-2003, 05:40 PM   #13
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STING2:
" I'm shocked you would even compare the two. "

The reason why i compared these people is that you allways start to talk about Mr. Husseins cruelties against humans when we find another human rights violation in iraq or innocent civilians who were shot.
So it looked to me that you were the one who wants to compare.

" This is true to a certain extent but the accuracy of precicion bombing has improved..."

The acuracy of precicion bombs increased, but from my informations it's far from 99%. Anyway, every percentace is important, because it might save a life.
Anyway, it's the wrong thread to discuss about the exact % (we could start a weapons-tech thread for it) i think we can agree that it's below 100% and it's much much better than conventional weapons.
So i can see that the US army tries to avoid colateral damage, but there will still be innocent people dying in a war.

" This is not entirely true since the scatter area for cluster bomb units is not that large compared to the entire battlefield."

How big do you define the Battlefield? the area where there can't be civilists or the entire iraq?

There were Children who lost their life, or some "just" their arms or legs. So it seems to me that the are which was choosen was too big.


" This was a terrible accident that could have happened in any setting, time or place."

Yes, and Accidents like these change the climate at the civilians verry much.
I think that you lost the public support this town when US Soldiers shot into the the masses of the demonstrating people.
And you are right, it can hapen anytime in any setting. But if the whole situation is critical allready (people down there didn't trust the US verry much before the war) it can get out of control completely. That's why the UN tries to get blue helmets from "historical-friendly" countries.
Not like this time in iraq, where the mayority are US soldiers (Iraqis remember that country from things like "who supported the Baath party to get the power in the country" and "who encouraged us to rebell against S.Hussein and left quietly after that"
They remember Great Brtitain as cononisation power from the past, so they haven't been too much in a cheering moode.

"The US Military is not engaged in propaganda..:"

Ok, let me say it in some friendlier words:
the truth of the war was somewhere inbetween the Pentagon-version and the Aljazeera-version.

You're right, there weren't much dead civilians in this war compared to WW1 or WW2. You can feel lucky that this war ended as long as there were enough precicion bombs. You can feel lucky that Saddam wasn't able to arm and use the WMDs in 40 minutes..
And i'm glad for every person who didn't die.
But i feel sad of every person who died.
And the blood of every single person there is on Americas hands, even if you stoped Saddam Huessein from killing other innocent people.
You simply can't say colateraldamage - torturevictiims_of_mr_hussein=?
It was a tragic situation there for a long time. Since the dictator was installed and armed there was no easy way out of this situation.

I never was one of the "numberplayers" before the war.
I know some of them - and they were completely wrong in some parts but they were also right in other things (for expample when they said that the masses won't be cheering with flowers in their hands when you liberate them)

The pentagon was proven wrong several times also, that dosn't mean that they are allwys wrong, just that we should be verry sceptical with their "truth"

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Old 09-22-2003, 06:34 PM   #14
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Klaus,

The person most responsible for the current conditions in Iraq is Saddam Hussein. The difficulties that currently exist in Iraq existed there prior to the war. Saddam used terror and pay backs to his Sunni tribes to keep various people and the country in check.

The reason the people in Iraq have a chance for a brighter future is because of the policies of the Bush administration. The policies of the French and German governments would have left them under the brutal rule of Saddam.

"That's why the UN tries to get blue helmets from "historical-friendly" countries."

We know how the Blue Helmets did in Bosnia. That sat around and watched 250,000 people be slaughtered until the United States took action to stop the war. Security and enforcement of the rule of law require more than lightly armed Blue Helmets.

"the truth of the war was somewhere inbetween the Pentagon-version and the Aljazeera-version."

Sorry, but Aljazeera has political motives, the only motive the men and women serving at the Pentagon and elsewhere in the US military is to protect the freedom and prosperity of the planet. None of them profit from their analyses and reporting. Their responsibility is defending the American people.

"You're right, there weren't much dead civilians in this war compared to WW1 or WW2. You can feel lucky that this war ended as long as there were enough precicion bombs. You can feel lucky that Saddam wasn't able to arm and use the WMDs in 40 minutes"

More French Civilians died in August from the heat than Iraqi civilians did in the war. You would be hard pressed to find a war that had a smaller number of civilian losses given the size of the population and the size of the military forces involved in the conflict. Its and amazing success and it was not luck. It was the professionalism, skill, and technology of the US military which kept civilian losses in Iraq so amazingly low.

"And the blood of every single person there is on Americas hands, even if you stoped Saddam Huessein from killing other innocent people.
You simply can't say colateraldamage - torturevictiims_of_mr_hussein=?
It was a tragic situation there for a long time. Since the dictator was installed and armed there was no easy way out of this situation."

There is only blood on Saddam's hands and its amazing how many in the anti-war crowd give him on pass on this by never mentioning him. The colateral damage that happened in this war was TINY. My friends involved in the fighting through out Iraq have reported this. My good friend still there who is a helicopter pilot had flown hundreds of hours over vast stretches of Iraq and has seen more of the country than most people.


"I never was one of the "numberplayers" before the war.
I know some of them - and they were completely wrong in some parts but they were also right in other things (for expample when they said that the masses won't be cheering with flowers in their hands when you liberate them)"

There were large numbers of people in Iraq that celebrated the liberation if you remember what happened with the Saddam statute. Also, most media coverage has focused on Baghdad rather than Shia and Kurdish area's. Many childern in Kurdish North are often named after Bush or Cheney. Its the Sunni minority around Baghdad where the problems and have been but everyone must learn that they do not represent the majority of Iraq.

"The pentagon was proven wrong several times also, that dosn't mean that they are allwys wrong, just that we should be verry sceptical with their "truth""

Where was the Pentagon proven wrong in the latest war?
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Old 09-22-2003, 06:38 PM   #15
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Sting, you're right, it's not realistic to expect Iraq, as you say, to become "Orlando, Florida in six months." The hell of the situation is that Iraq has been either under a dictatorship or a complete mess for centuries. But now, there's a power vacuum, and unfortunately terrorist outfits have gotten power. Just today the pseudo-Wahhabists attacked the U.N. people *again*. These people are making me really nervous. They are Sunnis, and they seem to have teamed up with Saddam's buddies, also Sunnis, to terrorize both Shias and U.S. and British troops. It seems to me that it's possible that the best trained corps on the planet might not be able to pacify this mess. These people don't give a damn about democratically elected governments. They only understand brute force and terror. This is what makes them so damn dangerous. Can terrorists be tamed? You could say it's worth a try with more of a security apparatus. But you also can't guarantee them success as long as the terrorists have access to guns and bombs.
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