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Old 09-27-2003, 09:16 AM   #46
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Klaus,

"Yes - because i would have had the time to stop if i had driven slower and more carefully"

So if you were driving slowly and carefully and a man suddenly ran into the street, he didn't see you, and you did not see him coming, and you ran him over and killed him, would you still consider yourself to have blood on your hands?


As i said before - yes! Just because the man made a mistake it dosn't wipe away my guilt that i could have prevented it if i'd driven more carefully.


Quote:
"As soon as the UN has the control over the country"

If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.

The fact of the matter is, the French government and the German government right now could be making a major contribution to rebuild Iraq, but they see fit to sit on the sidelines for political reasons. Wonderful excuse. In any event, the USA will continue to rebuild Iraq with or without the help of the French government and the German government. Incredible that they will not help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference. Let it be known where the French government and German governments interest and hearts are when it comes to building post Saddam Iraq.

Should this be a surprise though considering how French and German governments treated Saddam in the lead up to the war?
You don't want to see that there are people who think that Saddam was a cruel dictator AND they didn't like the uniliteral movement of the "coalition of the willing"

If you look at the German Constitution from May 23 1949:
Handlungen, die geeignet sind und in der Absicht vorgenommen werden, das friedliche Zusammenleben der Völker zu stören, insbeson­dere die Führung eines Angriffskrieges vorzubereiten, sind verfassungs­widrig. Sie sind unter Strafe zu stellen.
This together with StGB § 80 and § 80a
means that people who help others to prepare a war like the iraq war you have to spend at least the next 10 years in prison (maximum lifetime)

So please respect that the German thinking about support of preemptive strikes is much more critical.

As long as it's not under UN control or it's a NATO operation it is not verry likely that any german chancelor would support it.
The best you can get under these circumstances is what you allready get, help for the Iraqi people (from the THW or Medical aid for the Iraqis, etc)

Klaus
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Old 09-27-2003, 11:26 AM   #47
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Originally posted by STING2
"As soon as the UN has the control over the country"

If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.
And let it be known that the US Government is willing te let people suffer and die over a political argument over who controls what in the what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.
Your argument works both ways, Sting. Other countries want/need an operation under UN control, or they won't/cannot cooperate. At the same time the USA does not want such an operation, it only wants other people's money.

Quote:
In any event, the USA will continue to rebuild Iraq with or without the help of the French government and the German government. Incredible that they will not help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference.
Then shut up whining complaining and go on! If you don't want other countries on board, then that's fine, but please stop complaining about it then. Incredible that the USA does not want other countries to help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference.

Should this be a surprise though considering how the USA is treating the whole oil situation?

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Old 09-27-2003, 11:44 AM   #48
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Originally posted by Popmartijn
Your argument works both ways, Sting. Other countries want/need an operation under UN control, or they won't/cannot cooperate.
Actually, it doesn't work both ways. The US is already helping - France is sitting on the sideline.


Quote:
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At the same time the USA does not want such an operation, it only wants other people's money.
This sounds more like an old stereotype of the US than reality.
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Old 09-27-2003, 12:17 PM   #49
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nbc, the USA is only "helping" insofar that it got itself into Iraq of its own will and now it realizes that it's stuck there.

The point is, when you treat other nations like shit and like they're irrelevant, then it's at least slightly arrogant to turn around and expect them to fall at your feet. I do agree that other nations should help out, but it should not be on the terms of the USA. If the Germans don't want to send in manpower, why the hell should they? I wouldn't want my sons being shot at either.

The administration wants to have its cake and eat it too. They make no concessions but expect the rest of the world to give up everything. It's a two way road, but they don't seem to care.

That said, I hope other countries to contribute to the rebuilding effort, but on their terms alone. The Iraqis need the help, and even though the rest of the world will likely get nothing for stepping up and being the bigger person, they should do it because that's what adults do.
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Old 09-27-2003, 06:25 PM   #50
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Klaus,

"As i said before - yes! Just because the man made a mistake it dosn't wipe away my guilt that i could have prevented it if i'd driven more carefully."

If you were driving as carefully has humanly possible down a major German highway and a man stepped out in front of your car that was impossible for you to see and it was impossible for you to stop or do anything to prevent yourself from hitting and killing him, would you consider yourself to have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?


"So please respect that the German thinking about support of preemptive strikes is much more critical."

The war is over Klaus. I'm talking about now.

"As long as it's not under UN control or it's a NATO operation it is not verry likely that any german chancelor would support it.
The best you can get under these circumstances is what you allready get, help for the Iraqi people (from the THW or Medical aid for the Iraqis, etc)"

So the Iraqi people can expect to get no support from Germany unless the political operation is under control of NATO or the UN? Japan is already contributing a Billion dollars.
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Old 09-27-2003, 06:46 PM   #51
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Popmartijn,

"And let it be known that the US Government is willing te let people suffer and die over a political argument over who controls what in the what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction."


"Your argument works both ways, Sting. Other countries want/need an operation under UN control, or they won't/cannot cooperate. At the same time the USA does not want such an operation, it only wants other people's money."

Yep, tell American soldiers that they don't care about the suffering of the Iraqi people! Its 130,000 American soldiers that are preventing ethnic warfare, providing security, and the chance for a future Iraqi Democracy. Its the US Taxpayer that is going to pay 87 Billion dollars for rebuilding Iraq. Its US soldiers that are risking their lives everyday for a stable and democratic Iraq.

The US is already contributing far more than any country ever will to a future Iraq. I realize some countries prefer a Saddam ruled Iraq, sorry, he is not coming back.

If France and Germany 10 years from now want to be known as the countries that sat and the sidelines and picked their noises while the rest of the international community banded together to aid and bring about a prosperous, stable and democratic Iraq, that is their problem.

The USA is already making a massive contribution to the future of Iraq and has asked France and Germany to do so as well. If they don't contribute anything significant, then its obvious they don't care about Iraq and its people. The charge cannot in any way be leveled against the USA, because the USA is already doing more for the future of the Iraqi people than any other nation will do period.

"Then shut up whining complaining and go on! If you don't want other countries on board, then that's fine, but please stop complaining about it then. Incredible that the USA does not want other countries to help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference."

Asking nations to contribute to building a future Iraq is considered by some Europeans to be whining? I wonder what Iraqi citizens in 10 years will think of that. They will remember #1 the ACTIONS of various countries. The USA has 130,000 service members in Iraq risking their lives for the Iraqi people! How many does France and Germany have in Iraq? 0. How much money in total are France and Germany going to give the Iraqi people in helping them to rebuild their country from 25 years of Saddam rule? The USA is already contributing 87 Billion dollars.

The USA is already rebuilding Iraq and helping the Iraqi people. Germany and France have the option to contribute to that but are letting politics get in the way. It does not cut both ways because the USA is already on the ground with its soldiers risking their lives everyday. If anyone should "SHUT UP" it should be those on the sidelines who are doing NOTHING.
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Old 09-27-2003, 07:06 PM   #52
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anitram,

"nbc, the USA is only "helping" insofar that it got itself into Iraq of its own will and now it realizes that it's stuck there."

The USA had plans prior to the war to keep 75,000 troops in Iraq indefinitely. The USA knew the process of rebuilding would take a long time, it just did not know the degree which is double what was previously thought. It was impossible to know how long it would take before actually being on the ground in Iraq. If Saddam had continue to rule Iraq as, many Europeans governments would have wished or would have prefered as a opposed to an invasion, the deteriation of the country would simply continue to get worse.

"The point is, when you treat other nations like shit and like they're irrelevant, then it's at least slightly arrogant to turn around and expect them to fall at your feet. I do agree that other nations should help out, but it should not be on the terms of the USA. If the Germans don't want to send in manpower, why the hell should they? I wouldn't want my sons being shot at either."

Other nations should be above what they percieve to be "namecalling". What will look most absurd and stupid to Iraqi people will be Germany and France not contributing to the rebuilding of Iraq because a Secretary of Defense refered to them as "Old Europe" in late 2002. Do you think France and Germany will ever get over the feelings being so hurt so that they might contribute to building a brighter future for the Iraqi people? Or are they content to sit and fume and do NOTHING in regards to the future of the Iraqi people?

"If the Germans don't want to send in manpower, why the hell should they? I wouldn't want my sons being shot at either.""

No one ever wants to be shot at, but that alone should not stop people from defending and helping others. It is this attitude that has prevented many European countries from effectively dealing with the security issues in Europe independent of the US Military.

"The administration wants to have its cake and eat it too. They make no concessions but expect the rest of the world to give up everything. It's a two way road, but they don't seem to care."

The administration cares a hell of a lot more for the people of Iraq than Germany or France do. America has 130,000 troops in Iraq risking their lives for the Iraqi people. the USA is contributing 87 Billion dollars to the rebuilding of Iraq. The USA is already helping Iraq, what are the French and Germans going to do?

"That said, I hope other countries to contribute to the rebuilding effort, but on their terms alone. The Iraqis need the help, and even though the rest of the world will likely get nothing for stepping up and being the bigger person, they should do it because that's what adults do."

Their terms alone? Let it be known that currently, French and German aid to the Iraqi people is, conditional. The USA is already helping the Iraqi people unconditionally. Lets see if Chirac and Shroeder can step out of their strollers long enough to contribute something to the Iraqi people.
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Old 09-28-2003, 03:16 PM   #53
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That's just crap.
Why should they risk their people or economy so Halliburton and Bechtel can make a frigging fortune. Our President certainly doesn't care about the Iraqi people only their oil.
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Old 09-28-2003, 08:51 PM   #54
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Scarletwine,

"That's just crap.
Why should they risk their people or economy so Halliburton and Bechtel can make a frigging fortune. Our President certainly doesn't care about the Iraqi people only their oil."

The more Iraqi oil that comes onto the market, the lower the price of energy will be worldwide. Consumers around the world benefit. The Iraqi people benefit because they finally start to recieve the revenue from this oil rather than Saddam. If the German and French Goverments want to help the Iraqi people and themselves, they should contribute to the operation in Iraq.

It is our Presidents actions that have removed the greatest menace to the lives of the Iraqi people. It is also these actions which will allow Iraq to develop into a modern stable democracy. Looking at the actions taken and being taken and their effect on the current and future situations is a far more accurate way to access the situation rather than old rehashed political stereotypes.

President Bush right now is doing more for the Iraqi people right now than anyone ever has in history. When will the German and French Governments jump on board and start to help the Iraqi people as well, or does being refered to as "Old Europe" mean Iraqi childern should not expect to get any support from the German and French Governments?
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Old 09-28-2003, 09:46 PM   #55
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The USA is already helping the Iraqi people unconditionally.
Oh mylanta...
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Old 09-28-2003, 11:09 PM   #56
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Four Iraqis Killed by U.S. Troops

Conflicting accounts are investigated after a family is fired upon at a checkpoint in Fallouja.

By Laura King
Times Staff Writer

September 28, 2003

FALLOUJA, Iraq — Lying heavily bandaged in his narrow hospital bed, Haider Jamil, 15 years old and newly orphaned, didn't look angry Saturday, or even grief-stricken. He looked puzzled.

The shooting at a U.S. military checkpoint the night before — which killed his parents, his grandmother and another man, hospital officials said — came as the family's pickup truck was slowing down and about to stop, Jamil said.

"We were coming to a halt. We thought that was what the soldiers wanted," he said softly. "So why did they shoot at us?"

U.S. military authorities have a very different version of events. A coalition spokesman said soldiers at the checkpoint came under fire from an approaching van about 10:45 p.m. Friday and returned fire. The military was investigating the incident, U.S. Army Lt. Col. George Krivo added.

The bloodshed marked the latest such fatal incident in Fallouja, a town 30 miles west of Baghdad that for months has been a focal point of tensions between U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians.

On Sept. 12, eight Iraqi policemen were killed by U.S. forces in Fallouja, an apparent "friendly fire" incident that remains under American investigation. Five months earlier, at least 16 Iraqis were killed and 78 wounded during two days of violent anti-American demonstrations in the town.

The Friday night shooting added to the already ample reserves of bitterness against the U.S. presence here.

"Coalition forces are shooting indiscriminately at everybody. And when we ask why, they say they were defending themselves," Mayor Taha Badawi Hamid said.

"The Americans are creating more hatred and hostility and enemies for themselves by behaving this way."

The predominantly Sunni Muslim town on the Euphrates River has a deeply traditional tribal culture and, before the war, was home to a large cadre of Saddam Hussein loyalists.

Debate over the circumstances of the Fallouja shooting came on a day shadowed by security jitters. At first light Saturday, attackers fired a barrage of projectiles — either missiles or rocket-propelled grenades — at a tightly guarded hotel in central Baghdad that houses U.S. military officers and coalition civilian personnel.

No one was hurt and damage was described as extremely minor. But the brazenness of the attack — a rare strike at a target within the so-called green zone, the most heavily fortified security area in the Iraqi capital — rattled many coalition staffers, particularly coming on the heels of deadly bombings at the U.N. compound.

Witnesses in a quiet residential area just west of the landmark Rashid Hotel said attackers had set up a rocket launcher in the middle of the street just before 7 a.m., fired off rounds and fled.

At least one of the projectiles missed the hotel and landed harmlessly on a nearby house, neighborhood residents said.

Meanwhile, in Fallouja, U.S. forces spent much of the day defusing a powerful bomb that had been planted next to the mayor's office. Most of the streets in the center of town were closed off during the bomb-clearing operation, which may have been a factor in preventing angry demonstrations in response to the checkpoint shooting.

Jamil, the 15-year-old who was wounded in the Fallouja shooting, was riding in the truck with his mother, father and grandmother, a neighbor and his infant sister. The baby was unhurt, doctors said, but all the other passengers were killed or wounded.

"I jumped out when the shooting began, but I was wounded in the back and the leg," Jamil said. His grandmother bled to death before medical help arrived, he said.

Similar accounts of the shooting came from Taher Yassin Inizi, a 29-year-old shopkeeper who was a passenger in the truck, and from Fahmi Aziz, a 32-year-old man who was a passenger on a motorcycle traveling just in front of it.

Another man on the motorcycle was among the four dead, said the hospital's director, Rafi Chiad.

"There was nothing to provoke them," Aziz, the motorcycle passenger, said of the Americans. "They were under a highway bridge. We could hardly see them. When we saw them, we tried to stop. But they fired at us all at once — tat-tat-tat!"

Jamil said the family was returning from a visit to relatives who live outside Fallouja.
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Old 10-03-2003, 05:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Klaus,

"As i said before - yes! Just because the man made a mistake it dosn't wipe away my guilt that i could have prevented it if i'd driven more carefully."

If you were driving as carefully has humanly possible down a major German highway and a man stepped out in front of your car that was impossible for you to see and it was impossible for you to stop or do anything to prevent yourself from hitting and killing him, would you consider yourself to have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?


If anyone has the chance to run into my car and i couldn't see him to stop before i hit him it wasn't as carefully as humanly possible

Quote:
"So please respect that the German thinking about support of preemptive strikes is much more critical."

The war is over Klaus. I'm talking about now.

"As long as it's not under UN control or it's a NATO operation it is not verry likely that any german chancelor would support it.
The best you can get under these circumstances is what you allready get, help for the Iraqi people (from the THW or Medical aid for the Iraqis, etc)"

So the Iraqi people can expect to get no support from Germany unless the political operation is under control of NATO or the UN? Japan is already contributing a Billion dollars.
They don't get Military Support without UN / Nato control.
Afik Germany allready supports Iraqi people with various organisations, from the German Red Cross to the THW
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Old 10-03-2003, 06:46 PM   #58
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"If anyone has the chance to run into my car and i couldn't see him to stop before i hit him it wasn't as carefully as humanly possible"

If you were driving on a major German highway, going the average speed limit you would normally drive if you were going on a long trip, then suddenly a person stepped out onto the road giving you know time to avoid hitting them, you would say you have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?

"They don't get Military Support without UN / Nato control.
Afik Germany allready supports Iraqi people with various organisations, from the German Red Cross to the THW"

I was not exclusively talking about military support although the Iraqi people need that to. In addition, every western country supports the Red Cross, I'm talking about a direct German government contribution to the reconstruction of Iraq. How many Euro's is the German government going to contribute directly to the Iraqi people if any?
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Old 10-05-2003, 06:26 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
"If anyone has the chance to run into my car and i couldn't see him to stop before i hit him it wasn't as carefully as humanly possible"

If you were driving on a major German highway, going the average speed limit you would normally drive if you were going on a long trip, then suddenly a person stepped out onto the road giving you know time to avoid hitting them, you would say you have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?


I don't think that the scenario you show above is a unavoidable accident since it would have bin avoidable if you'd driven slower.

There is no speedlimit on German Autobahns but that dosn't mean that you are allowed to drive in a way that could harm other people (for example people illegaly crossing that road)

So "unavoidable accident" could be something if your steering or your breaks don't work anymore (also your car was serviced regularely)

Quote:
"They don't get Military Support without UN / Nato control.
Afik Germany allready supports Iraqi people with various organisations, from the German Red Cross to the THW"

I was not exclusively talking about military support although the Iraqi people need that to. In addition, every western country supports the Red Cross, I'm talking about a direct German government contribution to the reconstruction of Iraq. How many Euro's is the German government going to contribute directly to the Iraqi people if any?
Ok, than i got your point wrong.
But if we are not talking about Military support - what do you expect?
German government offeres the THW (which is governemnt institution) for example.

It would be much easier for other countries like germany If the Iraq had a souvereign government or if the country would be under UN control because Germany loves to help the iraqi people but Germany isn't willing to pay for the Military action they didn't support before.

I've read about an interesting idea today. Raise the fuel taxes 1$ to pay the reconstruction in iraq. This would hurt the Opec and help more environmental-friendly cars to succeed.

Klaus
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Old 10-05-2003, 04:34 PM   #60
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Klaus,

Unless you never drive faster than 30 KM on any highway its possible that you could hit someone who just stepped on to the high way and you would have no way to slow down in time before hitting him. You can't have blood on your hands for something that you could not prevent.

"Ok, than i got your point wrong.
But if we are not talking about Military support - what do you expect?"
"German government offeres the THW (which is governemnt institution) for example."

Japan has offered the Provisional Government of Iraq and the US government 1 Billion dollars in reconstruction aid for Iraq just for this year. What is the German government going to give if anything?

"It would be much easier for other countries like germany If the Iraq had a souvereign government or if the country would be under UN control because Germany loves to help the iraqi people but Germany isn't willing to pay for the Military action they didn't support before"

Klaus, the war is over and the US Government is paying for the military operations conducted from March 20- the end of April 2003.

Were talking about the cost of US Military operations over the NEXT year. These military operations are vital to the security and safety of the Iraqi people. If you don't want the Iraqi people to suffer the effects of anarchy, you should support current US and coalition military activities which are rounding up criminals and hunting terrorist that are attacking the countries infrastructure and United Nations buildings.

In addition are the reconstruction cost which are massive. Again, Japan is given 1 Billion dollars for this year! What are France and Germany going to give? So far, Germany and France are doing almost nothing to help the Iraqi people. The USA on the other hand is going to spend nearly 87 Billion dollars to help them! If Germany supports a peaceful and democratic Iraq, what are they going to do themselves to support the Iraqi people and how much! The USA is giving over 100,000 troops and 87 Billion dollars in reconstruction aid, what are the Germans going to do if anything?
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