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Old 09-24-2003, 05:10 PM   #31
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Originally posted by STING2
Blame does not only go to Hitler but also to those that had to power to stop him and did not.
I am European born, of mixed heritage and it really chafes my a$$ that you consistently refer to "Europe" as a single entity. It's a continent composed of many nations, many religions, many people with entirely different histories, belonging to different language groups, embracing different traditions. Your constant use of Europe as a sweeping generalization really shows a lack of understanding about just how different people there are.

You did not say this originally, what you said was that EUROPE CAUSED two world wars. That is bullshit and anybody with any reason and logic in their head knows it.
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Old 09-24-2003, 06:30 PM   #32
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Anitrim,

"I am European born, of mixed heritage and it really chafes my a$$ that you consistently refer to "Europe" as a single entity. It's a continent composed of many nations, many religions, many people with entirely different histories, belonging to different language groups, embracing different traditions. Your constant use of Europe as a sweeping generalization really shows a lack of understanding about just how different people there are."

I'm well aware of the various things you say above but that does not change the fact that this continent regardless of multiple cultures, histories and politics, failed independently to prevent and stop two World Wars.


"You did not say this originally, what you said was that EUROPE CAUSED two world wars. That is bullshit and anybody with any reason and logic in their head knows it."

Europe(the continent of multiple ethnic groups, languages, histories, traditions) collectively failed to stop and end two World Wars. The Wars were started by Europeans regardless of who you want to put most or all of the blame on. The Wars were also preventable by other Europeans who did not start them.

America could of helped the Europeans but it did not until it was attacked itself. This was a big mistake. But the Europeans had the technical ability to resolve these matters themselves independent of outside intervention if they had acted early.
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Old 09-24-2003, 06:47 PM   #33
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"America could of helped the Europeans but it did not until it was attacked itself. This was a big mistake. But the Europeans had the technical ability to resolve these matters themselves independent of outside intervention if they had acted early."

To quote NbC hindsight is 20/20. The times were much diferent then, expecially communications. I doubt that many countries in Europe even knew what was going on in Poland or other countries until the machine was rolling. In fact the Bush family was on of the people trying to keep us out of the war so they could continue arms sales.

The belief of a somehow superior, farseeing, never done wrong America, or Americans is delusional.
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Old 09-24-2003, 07:30 PM   #34
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Klaus,

"In Iraq war 1 Germany stood behind the US and didn't question their decision, we payed a fortune to the US, because Mr. Kohl didn't want to participate with troops, just with money (His infamous checkbook diplomacy)"

Germany supported removing Iraqi troops from Kuwait in 1991. It did not support removing Saddam from power in 1991.


"Saddam was installed by the US, we thought he was "our bastard" until we realized that bastards are bastards and don't care about who gave them the power. I know the list you posted about the Weapons he bought, i had some questions, but finaly it wasn't important enough for me to spend more time with checking this."

The United States did not install Saddam. I can't begin to imagine how you could say that. If you really did read the Weapons list, then you would no where the majority of Saddam's support came from. It was not the United States. If you would like to see this list again, I can post it here.


"Do you want a discussion or do you only want to see what fits your point of view?"

Perhaps you should ask yourself this.

"The western world stole the goods of the 3rd world for centuries, remember the colonaliasation? Where europe defacto stole The Gold and the Goods they wanted to?
Remember that we stole an entire contient called USA from the native americans?"

Yes thats true, but we were talking about Iraq and what it had done in the region over the past 20 years and today. The USA is not robbing Iraq or any country in the region.

"With the same standards you could have defended slavery.
"We only stop slavery if we find a cheaper way to maintain our cotonfields.""

Thats a silly comparison. To actually compare the use and consumption of oil because of its economic and other types of benefits to a gross human rights abuse of African Americans completely demeans their suffering and is an insult to them.


"If we'd put the same amount of money in regenerative energy it will become much cheaper.
We have to do it anyway. If we would raise the "3rd" world to the american standards of living traditional oil resources will be gone in our lifespan."

This is already happening, but it does not change the fact that when you wake up tomorrow and for the next year and 10 years or more, oil will remain the most important energy resource, regardless of the level of investment in regenerative energy. Understanding that fact, you have to adjust national policy accordingly.


"So it's even more important that our future dosn't only rely on oil. Even if we manage that the poor will stay poor and the 3rd world won't have any access to oil it will be gone in the next generations. - So wars for oil are short sighted"

WRONG! Wars to defend the worlds access to energy supply are a current reality that is vital today. The tomorrow you dream of, will not be possible without a secure and stable energy supply you enjoy today. Economic Depression on the scale of the 1930s will simply make the conversion to an alternative source of energy less likely do to the problems such a Depression would create.

"The more money they get from the government the more they are able to present the President good or risky stratetgies. The more the President relies on these strategies the more money they get."

Nope, the more money the Pentagon gets from the US government the more likely they are able to present the President with good strategies and the less likely they have to suggest risky strategies in order to achieve the presidents national security objective. The Pentagon does not ask for things it does not need to fullfill the requirements of the Presidents National Security Strategy.


"So you tell me that there is no interest for the Pentagon to get money to enlargen his troops and by that to increase their relevance in the world?"

The goal of the Pentagon is to fullfill the National Security objectives of the American People. The Pentagon buys weapons and increases and decreases troop strength based on what is required to maintain peace and stability through out the world. It is not about being relevant, it is about maintaining a stable and peaceful world.

Hundreds of Thousands of US soldiers are currently deployed around the world fighting Terrorism and protecting various area's of the world from attack.

"Imagine a 100% peaceful world . what would hapen to the job of the Pentagon employees?"

There is no other organization in the world that has made the possiblity of a 100% peacefull world more likely than the Pentagon. There would be no other organization in the world that would be happier if the world became 100% peaceful. The men and women who work at the Pentagon do so out of a desire to serve their country, not because they make lots of money, because they don't.

Policemen around the world would also love it if it was 100% peaceful. So would firemen.


"So you think a driver has only blood on his hands when he is "targeteting" a child on a road and tries to kill it, he has no blood on his hands when he just drives to fast (and thereby risks the death) and tries to avoid collision with the kid on the road?"

The US military were not driving to fast. The US military did what they were trained to do. Accidents happen.

Tomorrow if your driving down the road, obeying all the rules of the road, and a man runs out in front of your car giving you no time to stop and you kill him, would you say your hands are bloody?

"you are right, massmedia loves the sensation more than the truth.
And since the public expected a short successful war and then a new democratic iraq in a verry short time (like Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair told us before the war) it's now a sensation that the people who were liberated try to kill the soldiers who liberated them.
We expect that the US troops help wounded enemies and therefore it's no sensation -> no big news"

No big news? Saving a persons life is not big news? If thats the perspective in Germany, thats very interesting.

The War was short, it was won in 3 and half weeks. The Anti-War people claimed that over a 1 million people would die. They were totally WRONG!

The President never said the reconstruction phase would be easy. He never said how much it would cost or how long it would take, because such things are simply unknowable.

Now that were in the reconstruction phase it will be interesting to see how much the French and Germans contribute to rebuilding Iraq after 25 years of rule under Saddam. The world is watching.

"The mayority of the EU citizens didn't want this war, so you shouldn't be surprised that the politicians (who's job it is to represent the will of their citizens) don't want to send troops and money for the US to help with a war they also didn't want.
Also don't forget that it's highly controversal debated if this war violates international rights and therefore is a kind of war where you will be imprisoned for lifetime if you are german and support it."

THE WAR IS OVER! When do France and Germany plan to help build a peaceful Iraq? US troops are already doing that performing vital functions all over the country and continueing to risk the lives for the safety and security of Iraqi families. What are France and Germany doing to help the lives of Iraqi families TODAY? What do that plan to do in the future and how much of a contribution will it be compared to other countries?

"And i can't proof it, but your military justice did allready. You removed a military m.d. from iraq because he was torturing his muslimic pows he should cure."

Ok one person, can you name anyone else? How many case of Police brutality have their been in Germany this past year? Yep, bad apples exist everywhere, all the more reason not to even bring up these isolated incindents as suggestions of broarder abuse, which is simply false.
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Old 09-24-2003, 07:46 PM   #35
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Scarletwine,


"To quote NbC hindsight is 20/20. The times were much diferent then, expecially communications. I doubt that many countries in Europe even knew what was going on in Poland or other countries until the machine was rolling. In fact the Bush family was on of the people trying to keep us out of the war so they could continue arms sales."

This is false. 1914 and 1933 were not the dark ages. It was 330 AD. People had plenty of intelligence to act on and they didn't. Germany was supposed to follow specific disarmament requirments of the treaty that ended World War I. I'm not talking about the reperations, but simply the disarmanent and removal of German troops from certain area's. The reoccupation of the Rhineland, the German movements into Austria and Czech did not go unnoticed at all by the rest of Europe. But the rest of Europe failed to act in all these cases and there was every reason to do so. Europe and the USA could have acted when Hitler took over the country in 1933 but they didn't.

"The belief of a somehow superior, farseeing, never done wrong America, or Americans is delusional."

This is not the belief that has shaped US foreign Policy since World War II. In fact, US foreign Policy since World War II correctly recognized the failures of European and US foreign Policy prior to World War II. Isolationism and non-intervention would never keep the world safe and would infact contribute to massively destructive crises.

US foreign Policy since World War II has corrected these mistakes of the past and has led to a much safer, peaceful, and more integrated and prosperous world that we live in today.
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Old 09-24-2003, 08:30 PM   #36
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This is false. 1914 and 1933 were not the dark ages. It was 330 AD. People had plenty of intelligence to act on and they didn't.
We can't even get correct intelligence today...
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Old 09-26-2003, 08:46 AM   #37
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Quote:
"So you think a driver has only blood on his hands when he is "targeteting" a child on a road and tries to kill it, he has no blood on his hands when he just drives to fast (and thereby risks the death) and tries to avoid collision with the kid on the road?"

The US military were not driving to fast. The US military did what they were trained to do. Accidents happen.
I think the US President drove to fast and some of the accidents in Iraq hapened because single persons - not the complete US military - were driving to fast.


Quote:
Tomorrow if your driving down the road, obeying all the rules of the road, and a man runs out in front of your car giving you no time to stop and you kill him, would you say your hands are bloody?
Yes - because i would have had the time to stop if i had driven slower and more carefully

Quote:
"you are right, massmedia loves the sensation more than the truth.
And since the public expected a short successful war and then a new democratic iraq in a verry short time (like Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair told us before the war) it's now a sensation that the people who were liberated try to kill the soldiers who liberated them.
We expect that the US troops help wounded enemies and therefore it's no sensation -> no big news"

No big news? Saving a persons life is not big news? If thats the perspective in Germany, thats very interesting.
It was my personal opinion that the Massmedia prefers clips of Policemen who abuse their power or do something wrong over Policemen who save someones life.
I think it's because the abuse is the unexpected.



Quote:
Now that were in the reconstruction phase it will be interesting to see how much the French and Germans contribute to rebuilding Iraq after 25 years of rule under Saddam. The world is watching.
They would love to contribute much more if it was under UN control.
Because they still think that the UN mandate for the war was not robust.
And if the US would have liberated Iraq under the UN mandate it would be time to give back the power to the UN.

Don't list the resolutions again, i know them, i know that you know them. We (as other people who know more about international rights than we) simply dissagree if the military action violated international laws.

Quote:
"The mayority of the EU citizens didn't want this war, so you shouldn't be surprised that the politicians (who's job it is to represent the will of their citizens) don't want to send troops and money for the US to help with a war they also didn't want.
Also don't forget that it's highly controversal debated if this war violates international rights and therefore is a kind of war where you will be imprisoned for lifetime if you are german and support it."

THE WAR IS OVER! When do France and Germany plan to help build a peaceful Iraq?
As soon as the UN has the control over the country

[QUOTE]"And i can't proof it, but your military justice did allready. You removed a military m.d. from iraq because he was torturing his muslimic pows he should cure."

Ok one person, can you name anyone else?

look at the amnesty international webpages about the human right abuses in iraq.

Quote:
How many case of Police brutality have their been in Germany this past year? Yep, bad apples exist everywhere, all the more reason not to even bring up these isolated incindents as suggestions of broarder abuse, which is simply false.
That was exactly my point. Bad apples exist everywhere - even inside the US military or inside the Pentagon or inside various governments
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Old 09-26-2003, 09:59 AM   #38
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As a side note, the civilian death count is now between 7346 and 9146. These are attributed directly to the war, whether from direct actions of the coalition or the lack of security caused by the invasion. I think it's getting pretty close to the UN's predicted 10,000 and six months haven't even passed since victory was declared. In fact it may well pass that number by the end of the year.
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:45 PM   #39
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Scarletwine,


"I think it's getting pretty close to the UN's predicted 10,000"

The UN and Anti-War movement figure was around 900,000. They were incredibly wrong but never acknowledged it.

"As a side note, the civilian death count is now between 7346 and 9146"

This number will never be seen as accurate because it has not forensic evidence to back it up, unlike the mass graves that are being found throughout Iraq from Saddam's rule.

It would be interesting if bodycount would do an estimate on the number of people that would have died from another 6 months or a year of Saddam's rule, but since Iraqi loss of life is a political tool for them, I understand that they won't.
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:52 PM   #40
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I'm curious where did the 900,000 come from? I don't think I've seen that.
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Old 09-26-2003, 06:02 PM   #41
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Klaus,

"Yes - because i would have had the time to stop if i had driven slower and more carefully"

So if you were driving slowly and carefully and a man suddenly ran into the street, he didn't see you, and you did not see him coming, and you ran him over and killed him, would you still consider yourself to have blood on your hands?

"As soon as the UN has the control over the country"

If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.

The fact of the matter is, the French government and the German government right now could be making a major contribution to rebuild Iraq, but they see fit to sit on the sidelines for political reasons. Wonderful excuse. In any event, the USA will continue to rebuild Iraq with or without the help of the French government and the German government. Incredible that they will not help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference. Let it be known where the French government and German governments interest and hearts are when it comes to building post Saddam Iraq.

Should this be a surprise though considering how French and German governments treated Saddam in the lead up to the war?
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Old 09-26-2003, 06:04 PM   #42
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BonoVoxSupastar,

There were a number of people on this forum that posted articles that contained figures ranging from 600,000 to 900,000 back in January-March of this year.
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Old 09-26-2003, 06:09 PM   #43
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If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.
Oh, because Bush is making it so easy for them, right? Please if you don't think we're playing the political game as well then you are mistaken.

Quote:
There were a number of people on this forum that posted articles that contained figures ranging from 600,000 to 900,000 back in January-March of this year.
Oh, I thought you were talking about something official.
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Old 09-26-2003, 06:14 PM   #44
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Its sad that so many people are dying/have died. But with war comes death.
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Old 09-26-2003, 06:22 PM   #45
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Bonvoxsuperstar,

"Oh, because Bush is making it so easy for them, right? Please if you don't think we're playing the political game as well then you are mistaken."

Really, how difficult is it to write a check for a Billion dollars? Japan just did. How difficult would it be for France and Germany to put their troops into certain area's of Iraq? 29 other countries are already contributing, so this idea that Germany and France can't because its to difficult does not hold much water. If Ukraine can contribute troops, why can't France and Germany?

"Oh, I thought you were talking about something official."

They were official predictions from the UN.
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