The Toll Grows Higher and Higher -6,100 to 7,800 have been killed.

[anitram]

Blame does not only go to Hitler but also to those that had to power to stop him and did not.

I am European born, of mixed heritage and it really chafes my a$$ that you consistently refer to "Europe" as a single entity. It's a continent composed of many nations, many religions, many people with entirely different histories, belonging to different language groups, embracing different traditions. Your constant use of Europe as a sweeping generalization really shows a lack of understanding about just how different people there are.

You did not say this originally, what you said was that EUROPE CAUSED two world wars. That is bullshit and anybody with any reason and logic in their head knows it.

 

[STING2]

Anitrim,

"I am European born, of mixed heritage and it really chafes my a$$ that you consistently refer to "Europe" as a single entity. It's a continent composed of many nations, many religions, many people with entirely different histories, belonging to different language groups, embracing different traditions. Your constant use of Europe as a sweeping generalization really shows a lack of understanding about just how different people there are."

I'm well aware of the various things you say above but that does not change the fact that this continent regardless of multiple cultures, histories and politics, failed independently to prevent and stop two World Wars.


"You did not say this originally, what you said was that EUROPE CAUSED two world wars. That is bullshit and anybody with any reason and logic in their head knows it."

Europe(the continent of multiple ethnic groups, languages, histories, traditions) collectively failed to stop and end two World Wars. The Wars were started by Europeans regardless of who you want to put most or all of the blame on. The Wars were also preventable by other Europeans who did not start them.

America could of helped the Europeans but it did not until it was attacked itself. This was a big mistake. But the Europeans had the technical ability to resolve these matters themselves independent of outside intervention if they had acted early.

 

[Scarletwine]

"America could of helped the Europeans but it did not until it was attacked itself. This was a big mistake. But the Europeans had the technical ability to resolve these matters themselves independent of outside intervention if they had acted early."

To quote NbC hindsight is 20/20. The times were much diferent then, expecially communications. I doubt that many countries in Europe even knew what was going on in Poland or other countries until the machine was rolling. In fact the Bush family was on of the people trying to keep us out of the war so they could continue arms sales.

The belief of a somehow superior, farseeing, never done wrong America, or Americans is delusional.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"In Iraq war 1 Germany stood behind the US and didn't question their decision, we payed a fortune to the US, because Mr. Kohl didn't want to participate with troops, just with money (His infamous checkbook diplomacy)"

Germany supported removing Iraqi troops from Kuwait in 1991. It did not support removing Saddam from power in 1991.


"Saddam was installed by the US, we thought he was "our bastard" until we realized that bastards are bastards and don't care about who gave them the power. I know the list you posted about the Weapons he bought, i had some questions, but finaly it wasn't important enough for me to spend more time with checking this."

The United States did not install Saddam. I can't begin to imagine how you could say that. If you really did read the Weapons list, then you would no where the majority of Saddam's support came from. It was not the United States. If you would like to see this list again, I can post it here.


"Do you want a discussion or do you only want to see what fits your point of view?"

Perhaps you should ask yourself this.

"The western world stole the goods of the 3rd world for centuries, remember the colonaliasation? Where europe defacto stole The Gold and the Goods they wanted to?
Remember that we stole an entire contient called USA from the native americans?"

Yes thats true, but we were talking about Iraq and what it had done in the region over the past 20 years and today. The USA is not robbing Iraq or any country in the region.

"With the same standards you could have defended slavery.
"We only stop slavery if we find a cheaper way to maintain our cotonfields.""

Thats a silly comparison. To actually compare the use and consumption of oil because of its economic and other types of benefits to a gross human rights abuse of African Americans completely demeans their suffering and is an insult to them.


"If we'd put the same amount of money in regenerative energy it will become much cheaper.
We have to do it anyway. If we would raise the "3rd" world to the american standards of living traditional oil resources will be gone in our lifespan."

This is already happening, but it does not change the fact that when you wake up tomorrow and for the next year and 10 years or more, oil will remain the most important energy resource, regardless of the level of investment in regenerative energy. Understanding that fact, you have to adjust national policy accordingly.


"So it's even more important that our future dosn't only rely on oil. Even if we manage that the poor will stay poor and the 3rd world won't have any access to oil it will be gone in the next generations. - So wars for oil are short sighted"

WRONG! Wars to defend the worlds access to energy supply are a current reality that is vital today. The tomorrow you dream of, will not be possible without a secure and stable energy supply you enjoy today. Economic Depression on the scale of the 1930s will simply make the conversion to an alternative source of energy less likely do to the problems such a Depression would create.

"The more money they get from the government the more they are able to present the President good or risky stratetgies. The more the President relies on these strategies the more money they get."

Nope, the more money the Pentagon gets from the US government the more likely they are able to present the President with good strategies and the less likely they have to suggest risky strategies in order to achieve the presidents national security objective. The Pentagon does not ask for things it does not need to fullfill the requirements of the Presidents National Security Strategy.


"So you tell me that there is no interest for the Pentagon to get money to enlargen his troops and by that to increase their relevance in the world?"

The goal of the Pentagon is to fullfill the National Security objectives of the American People. The Pentagon buys weapons and increases and decreases troop strength based on what is required to maintain peace and stability through out the world. It is not about being relevant, it is about maintaining a stable and peaceful world.

Hundreds of Thousands of US soldiers are currently deployed around the world fighting Terrorism and protecting various area's of the world from attack.

"Imagine a 100% peaceful world . what would hapen to the job of the Pentagon employees?"

There is no other organization in the world that has made the possiblity of a 100% peacefull world more likely than the Pentagon. There would be no other organization in the world that would be happier if the world became 100% peaceful. The men and women who work at the Pentagon do so out of a desire to serve their country, not because they make lots of money, because they don't.

Policemen around the world would also love it if it was 100% peaceful. So would firemen.


"So you think a driver has only blood on his hands when he is "targeteting" a child on a road and tries to kill it, he has no blood on his hands when he just drives to fast (and thereby risks the death) and tries to avoid collision with the kid on the road?"

The US military were not driving to fast. The US military did what they were trained to do. Accidents happen.

Tomorrow if your driving down the road, obeying all the rules of the road, and a man runs out in front of your car giving you no time to stop and you kill him, would you say your hands are bloody?

"you are right, massmedia loves the sensation more than the truth.
And since the public expected a short successful war and then a new democratic iraq in a verry short time (like Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair told us before the war) it's now a sensation that the people who were liberated try to kill the soldiers who liberated them.
We expect that the US troops help wounded enemies and therefore it's no sensation -> no big news"

No big news? Saving a persons life is not big news? If thats the perspective in Germany, thats very interesting.

The War was short, it was won in 3 and half weeks. The Anti-War people claimed that over a 1 million people would die. They were totally WRONG!

The President never said the reconstruction phase would be easy. He never said how much it would cost or how long it would take, because such things are simply unknowable.

Now that were in the reconstruction phase it will be interesting to see how much the French and Germans contribute to rebuilding Iraq after 25 years of rule under Saddam. The world is watching.

"The mayority of the EU citizens didn't want this war, so you shouldn't be surprised that the politicians (who's job it is to represent the will of their citizens) don't want to send troops and money for the US to help with a war they also didn't want.
Also don't forget that it's highly controversal debated if this war violates international rights and therefore is a kind of war where you will be imprisoned for lifetime if you are german and support it."

THE WAR IS OVER! When do France and Germany plan to help build a peaceful Iraq? US troops are already doing that performing vital functions all over the country and continueing to risk the lives for the safety and security of Iraqi families. What are France and Germany doing to help the lives of Iraqi families TODAY? What do that plan to do in the future and how much of a contribution will it be compared to other countries?

"And i can't proof it, but your military justice did allready. You removed a military m.d. from iraq because he was torturing his muslimic pows he should cure."

Ok one person, can you name anyone else? How many case of Police brutality have their been in Germany this past year? Yep, bad apples exist everywhere, all the more reason not to even bring up these isolated incindents as suggestions of broarder abuse, which is simply false.

 

[STING2]

Scarletwine,


"To quote NbC hindsight is 20/20. The times were much diferent then, expecially communications. I doubt that many countries in Europe even knew what was going on in Poland or other countries until the machine was rolling. In fact the Bush family was on of the people trying to keep us out of the war so they could continue arms sales."

This is false. 1914 and 1933 were not the dark ages. It was 330 AD. People had plenty of intelligence to act on and they didn't. Germany was supposed to follow specific disarmament requirments of the treaty that ended World War I. I'm not talking about the reperations, but simply the disarmanent and removal of German troops from certain area's. The reoccupation of the Rhineland, the German movements into Austria and Czech did not go unnoticed at all by the rest of Europe. But the rest of Europe failed to act in all these cases and there was every reason to do so. Europe and the USA could have acted when Hitler took over the country in 1933 but they didn't.

"The belief of a somehow superior, farseeing, never done wrong America, or Americans is delusional."

This is not the belief that has shaped US foreign Policy since World War II. In fact, US foreign Policy since World War II correctly recognized the failures of European and US foreign Policy prior to World War II. Isolationism and non-intervention would never keep the world safe and would infact contribute to massively destructive crises.

US foreign Policy since World War II has corrected these mistakes of the past and has led to a much safer, peaceful, and more integrated and prosperous world that we live in today.

 

[BVS]

This is false. 1914 and 1933 were not the dark ages. It was 330 AD. People had plenty of intelligence to act on and they didn't.

We can't even get correct intelligence today...

 

[Klaus]

"So you think a driver has only blood on his hands when he is "targeteting" a child on a road and tries to kill it, he has no blood on his hands when he just drives to fast (and thereby risks the death) and tries to avoid collision with the kid on the road?"

The US military were not driving to fast. The US military did what they were trained to do. Accidents happen.

I think the US President drove to fast and some of the accidents in Iraq hapened because single persons - not the complete US military - were driving to fast.

Tomorrow if your driving down the road, obeying all the rules of the road, and a man runs out in front of your car giving you no time to stop and you kill him, would you say your hands are bloody?

Yes - because i would have had the time to stop if i had driven slower and more carefully

"you are right, massmedia loves the sensation more than the truth.
And since the public expected a short successful war and then a new democratic iraq in a verry short time (like Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair told us before the war) it's now a sensation that the people who were liberated try to kill the soldiers who liberated them.
We expect that the US troops help wounded enemies and therefore it's no sensation -> no big news"

No big news? Saving a persons life is not big news? If thats the perspective in Germany, thats very interesting.

It was my personal opinion that the Massmedia prefers clips of Policemen who abuse their power or do something wrong over Policemen who save someones life.
I think it's because the abuse is the unexpected.

Now that were in the reconstruction phase it will be interesting to see how much the French and Germans contribute to rebuilding Iraq after 25 years of rule under Saddam. The world is watching.

They would love to contribute much more if it was under UN control.
Because they still think that the UN mandate for the war was not robust.
And if the US would have liberated Iraq under the UN mandate it would be time to give back the power to the UN.

Don't list the resolutions again, i know them, i know that you know them. We (as other people who know more about international rights than we) simply dissagree if the military action violated international laws.

"The mayority of the EU citizens didn't want this war, so you shouldn't be surprised that the politicians (who's job it is to represent the will of their citizens) don't want to send troops and money for the US to help with a war they also didn't want.
Also don't forget that it's highly controversal debated if this war violates international rights and therefore is a kind of war where you will be imprisoned for lifetime if you are german and support it."

THE WAR IS OVER! When do France and Germany plan to help build a peaceful Iraq?

As soon as the UN has the control over the country

"And i can't proof it, but your military justice did allready. You removed a military m.d. from iraq because he was torturing his muslimic pows he should cure."

Ok one person, can you name anyone else?

look at the amnesty international webpages about the human right abuses in iraq.

How many case of Police brutality have their been in Germany this past year? Yep, bad apples exist everywhere, all the more reason not to even bring up these isolated incindents as suggestions of broarder abuse, which is simply false.

That was exactly my point. Bad apples exist everywhere - even inside the US military or inside the Pentagon or inside various governments

 

[Scarletwine]

As a side note, the civilian death count is now between 7346 and 9146. These are attributed directly to the war, whether from direct actions of the coalition or the lack of security caused by the invasion. I think it's getting pretty close to the UN's predicted 10,000 and six months haven't even passed since victory was declared. In fact it may well pass that number by the end of the year.

 

[STING2]

Scarletwine,


"I think it's getting pretty close to the UN's predicted 10,000"

The UN and Anti-War movement figure was around 900,000. They were incredibly wrong but never acknowledged it.

"As a side note, the civilian death count is now between 7346 and 9146"

This number will never be seen as accurate because it has not forensic evidence to back it up, unlike the mass graves that are being found throughout Iraq from Saddam's rule.

It would be interesting if bodycount would do an estimate on the number of people that would have died from another 6 months or a year of Saddam's rule, but since Iraqi loss of life is a political tool for them, I understand that they won't.

 

[BVS]

I'm curious where did the 900,000 come from? I don't think I've seen that.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"Yes - because i would have had the time to stop if i had driven slower and more carefully"

So if you were driving slowly and carefully and a man suddenly ran into the street, he didn't see you, and you did not see him coming, and you ran him over and killed him, would you still consider yourself to have blood on your hands?

"As soon as the UN has the control over the country"

If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.

The fact of the matter is, the French government and the German government right now could be making a major contribution to rebuild Iraq, but they see fit to sit on the sidelines for political reasons. Wonderful excuse. In any event, the USA will continue to rebuild Iraq with or without the help of the French government and the German government. Incredible that they will not help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference. Let it be known where the French government and German governments interest and hearts are when it comes to building post Saddam Iraq.

Should this be a surprise though considering how French and German governments treated Saddam in the lead up to the war?

 

[STING2]

BonoVoxSupastar,

There were a number of people on this forum that posted articles that contained figures ranging from 600,000 to 900,000 back in January-March of this year.

 

[BVS]

If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.

Oh, because Bush is making it so easy for them, right? Please if you don't think we're playing the political game as well then you are mistaken.

There were a number of people on this forum that posted articles that contained figures ranging from 600,000 to 900,000 back in January-March of this year.

Oh, I thought you were talking about something official.

 

[adamswildhoney]

Its sad that so many people are dying/have died. But with war comes death.

 

[STING2]

Bonvoxsuperstar,

"Oh, because Bush is making it so easy for them, right? Please if you don't think we're playing the political game as well then you are mistaken."

Really, how difficult is it to write a check for a Billion dollars? Japan just did. How difficult would it be for France and Germany to put their troops into certain area's of Iraq? 29 other countries are already contributing, so this idea that Germany and France can't because its to difficult does not hold much water. If Ukraine can contribute troops, why can't France and Germany?

"Oh, I thought you were talking about something official."

They were official predictions from the UN.

 

[Klaus]

Klaus,

"Yes - because i would have had the time to stop if i had driven slower and more carefully"

So if you were driving slowly and carefully and a man suddenly ran into the street, he didn't see you, and you did not see him coming, and you ran him over and killed him, would you still consider yourself to have blood on your hands?

As i said before - yes! Just because the man made a mistake it dosn't wipe away my guilt that i could have prevented it if i'd driven more carefully.

"As soon as the UN has the control over the country"

If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.

The fact of the matter is, the French government and the German government right now could be making a major contribution to rebuild Iraq, but they see fit to sit on the sidelines for political reasons. Wonderful excuse. In any event, the USA will continue to rebuild Iraq with or without the help of the French government and the German government. Incredible that they will not help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference. Let it be known where the French government and German governments interest and hearts are when it comes to building post Saddam Iraq.

Should this be a surprise though considering how French and German governments treated Saddam in the lead up to the war?

You don't want to see that there are people who think that Saddam was a cruel dictator AND they didn't like the uniliteral movement of the "coalition of the willing"

If you look at the German Constitution from May 23 1949:
Handlungen, die geeignet sind und in der Absicht vorgenommen werden, das friedliche Zusammenleben der V?lker zu st?ren, insbeson?dere die F?hrung eines Angriffskrieges vorzubereiten, sind verfassungs?widrig. Sie sind unter Strafe zu stellen.
This together with StGB ? 80 and ? 80a
means that people who help others to prepare a war like the iraq war you have to spend at least the next 10 years in prison (maximum lifetime)

So please respect that the German thinking about support of preemptive strikes is much more critical.

As long as it's not under UN control or it's a NATO operation it is not verry likely that any german chancelor would support it.
The best you can get under these circumstances is what you allready get, help for the Iraqi people (from the THW or Medical aid for the Iraqis, etc)

Klaus

 

[Popmartijn]

"As soon as the UN has the control over the country"

If thats true, let it be known that the French Government and German government are willing to let people suffer and die over a political arguement over who controls what in the reconstruction phase. Wonderful, what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.

And let it be known that the US Government is willing te let people suffer and die over a political argument over who controls what in the what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction.
Your argument works both ways, Sting. Other countries want/need an operation under UN control, or they won't/cannot cooperate. At the same time the USA does not want such an operation, it only wants other people's money.

In any event, the USA will continue to rebuild Iraq with or without the help of the French government and the German government. Incredible that they will not help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference.

Then shut up whining complaining and go on! If you don't want other countries on board, then that's fine, but please stop complaining about it then. Incredible that the USA does not want other countries to help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference.

Should this be a surprise though considering how the USA is treating the whole oil situation?

Marty

 

[nbcrusader]

Your argument works both ways, Sting. Other countries want/need an operation under UN control, or they won't/cannot cooperate.

Actually, it doesn't work both ways. The US is already helping - France is sitting on the sideline.

At the same time the USA does not want such an operation, it only wants other people's money.

This sounds more like an old stereotype of the US than reality.

 

[anitram]

nbc, the USA is only "helping" insofar that it got itself into Iraq of its own will and now it realizes that it's stuck there.

The point is, when you treat other nations like shit and like they're irrelevant, then it's at least slightly arrogant to turn around and expect them to fall at your feet. I do agree that other nations should help out, but it should not be on the terms of the USA. If the Germans don't want to send in manpower, why the hell should they? I wouldn't want my sons being shot at either.

The administration wants to have its cake and eat it too. They make no concessions but expect the rest of the world to give up everything. It's a two way road, but they don't seem to care.

That said, I hope other countries to contribute to the rebuilding effort, but on their terms alone. The Iraqis need the help, and even though the rest of the world will likely get nothing for stepping up and being the bigger person, they should do it because that's what adults do.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"As i said before - yes! Just because the man made a mistake it dosn't wipe away my guilt that i could have prevented it if i'd driven more carefully."

If you were driving as carefully has humanly possible down a major German highway and a man stepped out in front of your car that was impossible for you to see and it was impossible for you to stop or do anything to prevent yourself from hitting and killing him, would you consider yourself to have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?


"So please respect that the German thinking about support of preemptive strikes is much more critical."

The war is over Klaus. I'm talking about now.

"As long as it's not under UN control or it's a NATO operation it is not verry likely that any german chancelor would support it.
The best you can get under these circumstances is what you allready get, help for the Iraqi people (from the THW or Medical aid for the Iraqis, etc)"

So the Iraqi people can expect to get no support from Germany unless the political operation is under control of NATO or the UN? Japan is already contributing a Billion dollars.

 

[STING2]

Popmartijn,

"And let it be known that the US Government is willing te let people suffer and die over a political argument over who controls what in the what a selfless act of compassion for the Iraqi people. We won't help you prevent suffering and deaths because we disagree with the political arrangements over reconstruction."


"Your argument works both ways, Sting. Other countries want/need an operation under UN control, or they won't/cannot cooperate. At the same time the USA does not want such an operation, it only wants other people's money."

Yep, tell American soldiers that they don't care about the suffering of the Iraqi people! Its 130,000 American soldiers that are preventing ethnic warfare, providing security, and the chance for a future Iraqi Democracy. Its the US Taxpayer that is going to pay 87 Billion dollars for rebuilding Iraq. Its US soldiers that are risking their lives everyday for a stable and democratic Iraq.

The US is already contributing far more than any country ever will to a future Iraq. I realize some countries prefer a Saddam ruled Iraq, sorry, he is not coming back.

If France and Germany 10 years from now want to be known as the countries that sat and the sidelines and picked their noises while the rest of the international community banded together to aid and bring about a prosperous, stable and democratic Iraq, that is their problem.

The USA is already making a massive contribution to the future of Iraq and has asked France and Germany to do so as well. If they don't contribute anything significant, then its obvious they don't care about Iraq and its people. The charge cannot in any way be leveled against the USA, because the USA is already doing more for the future of the Iraqi people than any other nation will do period.

"Then shut up whining complaining and go on! If you don't want other countries on board, then that's fine, but please stop complaining about it then. Incredible that the USA does not want other countries to help the Iraqi people over what in the long run is a minor political difference."

Asking nations to contribute to building a future Iraq is considered by some Europeans to be whining? I wonder what Iraqi citizens in 10 years will think of that. They will remember #1 the ACTIONS of various countries. The USA has 130,000 service members in Iraq risking their lives for the Iraqi people! How many does France and Germany have in Iraq? 0. How much money in total are France and Germany going to give the Iraqi people in helping them to rebuild their country from 25 years of Saddam rule? The USA is already contributing 87 Billion dollars.

The USA is already rebuilding Iraq and helping the Iraqi people. Germany and France have the option to contribute to that but are letting politics get in the way. It does not cut both ways because the USA is already on the ground with its soldiers risking their lives everyday. If anyone should "SHUT UP" it should be those on the sidelines who are doing NOTHING.

 

[STING2]

anitram,

"nbc, the USA is only "helping" insofar that it got itself into Iraq of its own will and now it realizes that it's stuck there."

The USA had plans prior to the war to keep 75,000 troops in Iraq indefinitely. The USA knew the process of rebuilding would take a long time, it just did not know the degree which is double what was previously thought. It was impossible to know how long it would take before actually being on the ground in Iraq. If Saddam had continue to rule Iraq as, many Europeans governments would have wished or would have prefered as a opposed to an invasion, the deteriation of the country would simply continue to get worse.

"The point is, when you treat other nations like shit and like they're irrelevant, then it's at least slightly arrogant to turn around and expect them to fall at your feet. I do agree that other nations should help out, but it should not be on the terms of the USA. If the Germans don't want to send in manpower, why the hell should they? I wouldn't want my sons being shot at either."

Other nations should be above what they percieve to be "namecalling". What will look most absurd and stupid to Iraqi people will be Germany and France not contributing to the rebuilding of Iraq because a Secretary of Defense refered to them as "Old Europe" in late 2002. Do you think France and Germany will ever get over the feelings being so hurt so that they might contribute to building a brighter future for the Iraqi people? Or are they content to sit and fume and do NOTHING in regards to the future of the Iraqi people?

"If the Germans don't want to send in manpower, why the hell should they? I wouldn't want my sons being shot at either.""

No one ever wants to be shot at, but that alone should not stop people from defending and helping others. It is this attitude that has prevented many European countries from effectively dealing with the security issues in Europe independent of the US Military.

"The administration wants to have its cake and eat it too. They make no concessions but expect the rest of the world to give up everything. It's a two way road, but they don't seem to care."

The administration cares a hell of a lot more for the people of Iraq than Germany or France do. America has 130,000 troops in Iraq risking their lives for the Iraqi people. the USA is contributing 87 Billion dollars to the rebuilding of Iraq. The USA is already helping Iraq, what are the French and Germans going to do?

"That said, I hope other countries to contribute to the rebuilding effort, but on their terms alone. The Iraqis need the help, and even though the rest of the world will likely get nothing for stepping up and being the bigger person, they should do it because that's what adults do."

Their terms alone? Let it be known that currently, French and German aid to the Iraqi people is, conditional. The USA is already helping the Iraqi people unconditionally. Lets see if Chirac and Shroeder can step out of their strollers long enough to contribute something to the Iraqi people.

 

[Scarletwine]

That's just crap.
Why should they risk their people or economy so Halliburton and Bechtel can make a frigging fortune. Our President certainly doesn't care about the Iraqi people only their oil.

 

[STING2]

Scarletwine,

"That's just crap.
Why should they risk their people or economy so Halliburton and Bechtel can make a frigging fortune. Our President certainly doesn't care about the Iraqi people only their oil."

The more Iraqi oil that comes onto the market, the lower the price of energy will be worldwide. Consumers around the world benefit. The Iraqi people benefit because they finally start to recieve the revenue from this oil rather than Saddam. If the German and French Goverments want to help the Iraqi people and themselves, they should contribute to the operation in Iraq.

It is our Presidents actions that have removed the greatest menace to the lives of the Iraqi people. It is also these actions which will allow Iraq to develop into a modern stable democracy. Looking at the actions taken and being taken and their effect on the current and future situations is a far more accurate way to access the situation rather than old rehashed political stereotypes.

President Bush right now is doing more for the Iraqi people right now than anyone ever has in history. When will the German and French Governments jump on board and start to help the Iraqi people as well, or does being refered to as "Old Europe" mean Iraqi childern should not expect to get any support from the German and French Governments?

 

[anitram]

The USA is already helping the Iraqi people unconditionally.

Oh mylanta...

 

[deep]

Four Iraqis Killed by U.S. Troops

Conflicting accounts are investigated after a family is fired upon at a checkpoint in Fallouja.

By Laura King
Times Staff Writer

September 28, 2003

FALLOUJA, Iraq ? Lying heavily bandaged in his narrow hospital bed, Haider Jamil, 15 years old and newly orphaned, didn't look angry Saturday, or even grief-stricken. He looked puzzled.

The shooting at a U.S. military checkpoint the night before ? which killed his parents, his grandmother and another man, hospital officials said ? came as the family's pickup truck was slowing down and about to stop, Jamil said.

"We were coming to a halt. We thought that was what the soldiers wanted," he said softly. "So why did they shoot at us?"

U.S. military authorities have a very different version of events. A coalition spokesman said soldiers at the checkpoint came under fire from an approaching van about 10:45 p.m. Friday and returned fire. The military was investigating the incident, U.S. Army Lt. Col. George Krivo added.

The bloodshed marked the latest such fatal incident in Fallouja, a town 30 miles west of Baghdad that for months has been a focal point of tensions between U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians.

On Sept. 12, eight Iraqi policemen were killed by U.S. forces in Fallouja, an apparent "friendly fire" incident that remains under American investigation. Five months earlier, at least 16 Iraqis were killed and 78 wounded during two days of violent anti-American demonstrations in the town.

The Friday night shooting added to the already ample reserves of bitterness against the U.S. presence here.

"Coalition forces are shooting indiscriminately at everybody. And when we ask why, they say they were defending themselves," Mayor Taha Badawi Hamid said.

"The Americans are creating more hatred and hostility and enemies for themselves by behaving this way."

The predominantly Sunni Muslim town on the Euphrates River has a deeply traditional tribal culture and, before the war, was home to a large cadre of Saddam Hussein loyalists.

Debate over the circumstances of the Fallouja shooting came on a day shadowed by security jitters. At first light Saturday, attackers fired a barrage of projectiles ? either missiles or rocket-propelled grenades ? at a tightly guarded hotel in central Baghdad that houses U.S. military officers and coalition civilian personnel.

No one was hurt and damage was described as extremely minor. But the brazenness of the attack ? a rare strike at a target within the so-called green zone, the most heavily fortified security area in the Iraqi capital ? rattled many coalition staffers, particularly coming on the heels of deadly bombings at the U.N. compound.

Witnesses in a quiet residential area just west of the landmark Rashid Hotel said attackers had set up a rocket launcher in the middle of the street just before 7 a.m., fired off rounds and fled.

At least one of the projectiles missed the hotel and landed harmlessly on a nearby house, neighborhood residents said.

Meanwhile, in Fallouja, U.S. forces spent much of the day defusing a powerful bomb that had been planted next to the mayor's office. Most of the streets in the center of town were closed off during the bomb-clearing operation, which may have been a factor in preventing angry demonstrations in response to the checkpoint shooting.

Jamil, the 15-year-old who was wounded in the Fallouja shooting, was riding in the truck with his mother, father and grandmother, a neighbor and his infant sister. The baby was unhurt, doctors said, but all the other passengers were killed or wounded.

"I jumped out when the shooting began, but I was wounded in the back and the leg," Jamil said. His grandmother bled to death before medical help arrived, he said.

Similar accounts of the shooting came from Taher Yassin Inizi, a 29-year-old shopkeeper who was a passenger in the truck, and from Fahmi Aziz, a 32-year-old man who was a passenger on a motorcycle traveling just in front of it.

Another man on the motorcycle was among the four dead, said the hospital's director, Rafi Chiad.

"There was nothing to provoke them," Aziz, the motorcycle passenger, said of the Americans. "They were under a highway bridge. We could hardly see them. When we saw them, we tried to stop. But they fired at us all at once ? tat-tat-tat!"

Jamil said the family was returning from a visit to relatives who live outside Fallouja.

 

[Klaus]

Klaus,

"As i said before - yes! Just because the man made a mistake it dosn't wipe away my guilt that i could have prevented it if i'd driven more carefully."

If you were driving as carefully has humanly possible down a major German highway and a man stepped out in front of your car that was impossible for you to see and it was impossible for you to stop or do anything to prevent yourself from hitting and killing him, would you consider yourself to have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?

If anyone has the chance to run into my car and i couldn't see him to stop before i hit him it wasn't as carefully as humanly possible

"So please respect that the German thinking about support of preemptive strikes is much more critical."

The war is over Klaus. I'm talking about now.

"As long as it's not under UN control or it's a NATO operation it is not verry likely that any german chancelor would support it.
The best you can get under these circumstances is what you allready get, help for the Iraqi people (from the THW or Medical aid for the Iraqis, etc)"

So the Iraqi people can expect to get no support from Germany unless the political operation is under control of NATO or the UN? Japan is already contributing a Billion dollars.

They don't get Military Support without UN / Nato control.
Afik Germany allready supports Iraqi people with various organisations, from the German Red Cross to the THW

 

[STING2]

"If anyone has the chance to run into my car and i couldn't see him to stop before i hit him it wasn't as carefully as humanly possible"

If you were driving on a major German highway, going the average speed limit you would normally drive if you were going on a long trip, then suddenly a person stepped out onto the road giving you know time to avoid hitting them, you would say you have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?

"They don't get Military Support without UN / Nato control.
Afik Germany allready supports Iraqi people with various organisations, from the German Red Cross to the THW"

I was not exclusively talking about military support although the Iraqi people need that to. In addition, every western country supports the Red Cross, I'm talking about a direct German government contribution to the reconstruction of Iraq. How many Euro's is the German government going to contribute directly to the Iraqi people if any?

 

[Klaus]

"If anyone has the chance to run into my car and i couldn't see him to stop before i hit him it wasn't as carefully as humanly possible"

If you were driving on a major German highway, going the average speed limit you would normally drive if you were going on a long trip, then suddenly a person stepped out onto the road giving you know time to avoid hitting them, you would say you have blood on your hands? You've never heard of an unavoidable accident?

I don't think that the scenario you show above is a unavoidable accident since it would have bin avoidable if you'd driven slower.

There is no speedlimit on German Autobahns but that dosn't mean that you are allowed to drive in a way that could harm other people (for example people illegaly crossing that road)

So "unavoidable accident" could be something if your steering or your breaks don't work anymore (also your car was serviced regularely)

"They don't get Military Support without UN / Nato control.
Afik Germany allready supports Iraqi people with various organisations, from the German Red Cross to the THW"

I was not exclusively talking about military support although the Iraqi people need that to. In addition, every western country supports the Red Cross, I'm talking about a direct German government contribution to the reconstruction of Iraq. How many Euro's is the German government going to contribute directly to the Iraqi people if any?

Ok, than i got your point wrong.
But if we are not talking about Military support - what do you expect?
German government offeres the THW (which is governemnt institution) for example.

It would be much easier for other countries like germany If the Iraq had a souvereign government or if the country would be under UN control because Germany loves to help the iraqi people but Germany isn't willing to pay for the Military action they didn't support before.

I've read about an interesting idea today. Raise the fuel taxes 1$ to pay the reconstruction in iraq. This would hurt the Opec and help more environmental-friendly cars to succeed.

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

Unless you never drive faster than 30 KM on any highway its possible that you could hit someone who just stepped on to the high way and you would have no way to slow down in time before hitting him. You can't have blood on your hands for something that you could not prevent.

"Ok, than i got your point wrong.
But if we are not talking about Military support - what do you expect?"
"German government offeres the THW (which is governemnt institution) for example."

Japan has offered the Provisional Government of Iraq and the US government 1 Billion dollars in reconstruction aid for Iraq just for this year. What is the German government going to give if anything?

"It would be much easier for other countries like germany If the Iraq had a souvereign government or if the country would be under UN control because Germany loves to help the iraqi people but Germany isn't willing to pay for the Military action they didn't support before"

Klaus, the war is over and the US Government is paying for the military operations conducted from March 20- the end of April 2003.

Were talking about the cost of US Military operations over the NEXT year. These military operations are vital to the security and safety of the Iraqi people. If you don't want the Iraqi people to suffer the effects of anarchy, you should support current US and coalition military activities which are rounding up criminals and hunting terrorist that are attacking the countries infrastructure and United Nations buildings.

In addition are the reconstruction cost which are massive. Again, Japan is given 1 Billion dollars for this year! What are France and Germany going to give? So far, Germany and France are doing almost nothing to help the Iraqi people. The USA on the other hand is going to spend nearly 87 Billion dollars to help them! If Germany supports a peaceful and democratic Iraq, what are they going to do themselves to support the Iraqi people and how much! The USA is giving over 100,000 troops and 87 Billion dollars in reconstruction aid, what are the Germans going to do if anything?