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Old 12-02-2006, 10:26 PM   #46
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^ Yeah, I was just reading about that in Roll Call, which is the Capitol Hill "newspaper"...the individual swearings-in are an optional photo-op with the Speaker. Anyway, Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution is quite unmistakable on this topic:
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The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Also, Prager is wrong on the historical details here--at least one Jewish Representative (Debbie Wasserman Schultz), as well as a Jewish Supreme Court Justice (Arthur Goldberg) and two Jewish governors (Linda Lingle and Madeleine Kunin) have indeed taken their individual oaths of office on a Tanakh (or a Siddur--Jewish prayerbook--in Kunin's case). It is true, though, that since one way to swear on a Bible is to open it to a passage of your choice first, it isn't innately as much of an issue for religious Jewish officeholders, since they can always open it to an OT passage.

Even the Presidential Oath of Office, the only one whose wording is fixed by the Constitution (Article II, Section 1) doesn't require a Bible nor a "So help me God", both of which are products of tradition--Teddy Roosevelt didn't swear on a Bible, and Franklin Pierce chose to affirm on a law book, rather than swear.
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Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."


Anyhow, we're getting off-track here, as Prager's column isn't related to the opening post and Mac already stated he doesn't care what Ellison takes his oath of office on.
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:18 AM   #47
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I had a feeling Prager's research was sloppy. Now Yolland has proved it.
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Old 12-03-2006, 12:22 PM   #48
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Originally posted by verte76
I had a feeling Prager's research was sloppy. Now Yolland has proved it.
"Research"?
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:08 PM   #49
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Originally posted by Ormus


"Research"?
Yeah, since when did Prager do research?? I was too nice to the idiot.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:23 AM   #50
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Originally posted by Ormus


Umm..."Christian Identity" and "Christian Reconstructionism" are two specifically defined movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...onstructionism

And I already pointed out that, although they are outside the mainstream of conservative Christianity, their theology is finding its way into mainstream.
No they aren't. And nice try attempting to link a religion with a secular, socialist, anti-semitic, and genocidal political philosophy. Obvioiusly, it's what you would like to believe. Your chains are your passion. Don't let your passion cloud your logic.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
Again, "violence" is not an inherent definer of "fascism." Like I said, either "Islamofascism" is a meaningless epithet, which, in that case, "Christofascism" is an equally meaningless epithet; or, if we are to actually start applying the actual political definition of "fascism" into this discourse (God forbid!), I've already cited three historical regimes, none of which engaged in foreign wars or terrorism, but had repressive governments that severely restricted freedoms and did not tolerate minority dissent, that fit the bill, using Christianity to cement their power.

If we are to accept this political definition, then "Islamofascism" takes on a whole new connotation, which not only covers people like Osama bin Laden, but also nations like Saudi Arabia, who do not support Al Qaeda, engage in foreign wars, or commit genocide, but have tightly controlled governments that have no tolerance for minority rights or beliefs, and use Islam to cement their authority and power.

So which is it? I guess we need to come up with a mutual definition of what "Islamofascism" is before we even try to continue this discussion.
Nobody has argued that "violence is the inherent definer of fascism." You not only assume this, but you fail to recognize what HAS been said about Sharia Law. Let me give you some examples.

The penalty for theft:
In accordance with the Qur'an and several hadith, theft is punished by imprisonment or amputation of hands or feet, depending on the number of times it was committed and depending on the item of theft and the situation.

(Qu'ran, Surah Al-Maeda, 5:38:

005.038
YUSUFALI: As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
PICKTHAL: As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.)

Penalty for Adultery:

Adultery (fornication) is a crime and except in the case of rape, both man and woman are equally guilty. Thus it is said in Surah An-Noor (24th Chapter of the Quran): (24:2) "The woman and the man guilty of adultery, inflict on each of them one hundred lashes. Let not compassion move you in their case because it has been prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the life Hereafter (i.e. on the fact that since these are Allah's Commandments, their results are bound to appear forth) and let a party of the believers witness their punishment (so as to make sure that the punishment has been given according to Law)."

Treatment of non-Muslims:

Under Sharia law non-muslims are goverened by the laws of their own specific communities however it codifies the treatment of dhimmis (Arabic) and rayahs (Turkish) in relation to the Muslim state and in cases of over-lapping jurisdiction.

The core component of treatment is the jizya, or tax specifically upon non-Muslims. The jizya originates in the Koran [9:29], which says "Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." The "Book" refers to the People of the Book, Jews and Christians, but the jizya was extended to all conquered non-Muslims. The jizya ultimately is less that the Zakah (money given to the poor and needy) and Sadaqah (charity) that Muslims give. In practice, this was rarely the case. In addition, when Dhimmis gave the jizya, they customarily had to bow low to the ground and then rise to be slapped once in the face. This practice was to fulfill the command that Christians and Jews "feel themselves subdued" (Quran 9:29).
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:26 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


well this explains a lot
Quote:
Rodinson was a Marxist, who described as "fascist" any movement of which he disapproved.
Leftism hasn't changed much. Replace "fascist" with bigoted, and the point is clear.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:30 AM   #52
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This is truly one of the funniest things ever coming from you. You go on 2 week hiatuses when you are asked for specifics.

BTW the Cold War is over, it cracks me up when conservatives are still stuck there.
Off topic trolling.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:55 AM   #53
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
No they aren't. And nice try attempting to link a religion with a secular, socialist, anti-semitic, and genocidal political philosophy. Obvioiusly, it's what you would like to believe. Your chains are your passion. Don't let your passion cloud your logic.
Perhaps you should learn to take some of your own advice.

Quote:
Nobody has argued that "violence is the inherent definer of fascism." You not only assume this, but you fail to recognize what HAS been said about Sharia Law. Let me give you some examples.
You've described a theocracy, not fascism. And, in spite of your monolithic thinking, I don't have warm and fuzzy feelings about Islam any more than you do. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give our Christian Taliban a free pass, as a result. After all, they have perverted Christianity, just as we'd say that Salafists (the correct term for "Wahhabists") have perverted Islam.

Don't let your passion cloud your logic.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:59 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
You've described a theocracy, not fascism. And, in spite of your monolithic thinking, I don't have warm and fuzzy feelings about Islam any more than you do. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give our Christian Taliban a free pass, as a result. After all, they have perverted Christianity, just as we'd say that Salafists (the correct term for "Wahhabists") have perverted Islam.
Theocracies are not mutually exclusive to fascist government. Those examples go to show that they are capable of going hand in hand.

And exactly how many acts of violence have our "Christian Taliban" committed by association this past month in order to justify your equal apprehension?
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:18 AM   #55
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You've described a theocracy, not fascism.
Theocracy and fascism are not mutually exclusive systems of government, we can have both secular and religious autocrats.
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:20 AM   #56
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just as we'd say that Salafists (the correct term for "Wahhabists") have perverted Islam
false
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Old 12-05-2006, 07:49 AM   #57
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
false
Interesting stuff, although this...

Quote:
The official ‘Wahhabi’ religion of Saudi Arabia has essentially merged with certain segments of Salafism. There is now intense competition between groups and individual scholars over the 'true' Salafism, with the scholars who support the Saudi regime attacking groups such as al-Qaeda as ‘Qutbists’ (following Sayyid Qutb) or takfiris (excommunicators).
...generally explains the confusion.
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Old 12-05-2006, 08:02 AM   #58
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We still haven't decided what "Islamofascism" is, outside of a meaningless epithet. How about Umberto Eco's definition of "fascism" here:

* "The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
* "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
* "Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
* "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
* "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
* "Obsession With a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book, "The New World Order," as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
* "Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
* "Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
* "Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
* "Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

For the record, he wrote this in 1995.

So, folks, in light of this, does this lend to "Islamofascism" having a basis? How about "Christofascism"?
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Old 12-05-2006, 11:58 AM   #59
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"The Cult of Tradition": building a 7th century society and rejecting the decadence and moral vacuum that modernism brings.

The Cult of Action for Action's Sake: an absolutist program of religious conversion and muder that can never cease until the ultra-literalist brand of Islam reigns supreme over every living person.

Disagreement is Treason: the crackdown on liberal intellectuals in Iran for this very reason is one example, the designation of apostate for Muslims who don't support a fundamentalist agenda would be another.

"Fear of Difference": religiously sanctioned bigotry in many cases, especially against Jews, Buddhists, Animists etc. but with tribalist elements there too with opression of ethnic minorities within particular countries.

"Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class": this would be on the basis that any political movement needs middle class ranks but in the context of Weimar Germany - the economic situations of Islamic terrorists such as the September 11 hijackers and the London bombers (a better example) could be tied into this.

"Obsession With a Plot": the protocols of the elders of Zion is a bestseller across the Islamic World; the ravings of your average fundamentalist is repleate with conspiratorial themes about Jews, Rotarians, Masons and Templars supressing the innate power of the Islamic world.

"Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare": There is the Darul Islam and Darul Harb, the domain of submission to God - oh sorry, peace and the domain of War where offensive jihad can be waged; there can never be any peace until there is only submission to God.

"Contempt for the Weak": perhaps more of a hallmark of the social darwinist fascism movement of Europe, but in terms of enforcing the order of things social justice doesn't usually feature highly on the mujahadeen justification list.

"Selective Populism": the common will of God revealed to Mohammed and interpreted by a clerical class.

"Newspeak": a hallmark of authoritarian systems, Hamas executes it's enemies and labels them Zionist collaborators.

The political system that Islamist terrorists seek to create is a theocracy. It is also authoritarian with submission to God through clerical leaders, Islamofascism aptly describes this movements model of government, it is distinguishable from your everyday fundamentalist who wants to ban bicycles but will at least obey the laws of whatever country they are in.

Now just because some who employ the term are incapable of seeing it happening from their own religion doesn't invalidate the term altogether, if one is consistent the argument of how can you say Islamofascist if you are offended by Christofascist is useless - unbelief is a high crime under both and there should be no qualms about calling this out - and yes there are secular fascist states who pulled off a lot of muder.
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