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Old 12-02-2006, 10:46 AM   #16
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How can it not be relevent to a discussion of Islamofascism? In both instances we are dealing with a religious identity that stipulates divine judgement against unbelievers, the imposition of state persecution against unbelievers (be it anti-gay laws or a dhimmi system), a will to rapture; both embrace the idea of an apocalypse and judgement day by God.

If we are to accept the idea of Christofascism then almost by definition Islamofascism must also be - and I think that the degree of violence the Islamofascist movements are exerting/threatening to exert exeeds that of the Christofascists regardless of rhetoric. Opposing both is perfectly fine and I see no reason that I should be held accountable for the actions of Christians before criticising some Mullahs and millitants.

Hate all religious fanatics with aspirations of state - we can't be discriminating. Christofascist is great, it cuts to the bone of people who condemn Muslims while willfully believing in the same basic lie, I think that it forces self-reflection on at least some level and pisses the right people off.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:03 AM   #17
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Case in point
Quote:
the gunmen came at night to drag mohammed halim away from his home, in front of his crying children and his wife begging for mercy.

the 46-year-old schoolteacher tried to reassure his family that he would return safely. but his life was over, he was part-disembowelled and then torn apart with his arms and legs tied to motorbikes, the remains put on display as a warning to others against defying taliban orders to stop educating girls.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2023831.ece?taliban

Religiously minded group, intent on running everybodies lives in accordance the a literalist theology from the 7th Century who will use violent coercion to get their way. This shouldn't stand, it isn't anti-imperialist resistance, it isn't a struggle for human rights it is pure religious thuggery that hurts the people that live under it most.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:10 AM   #18
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Originally posted by Ormus
The "war on terror" and Islam has zero to do with this, so let's get that off the table right now.
It has everything to do with this thread. But predictably, you dismiss the link out of political cowardice. You are a cover-up for radical Islam.

And I can care less about your intellectual dishonesty, your historical revisionism, and your utter hatred for Christianity. But go ahead and fill your mind with neo-Marxist propaganda. Rather than give any examples that even remotely support your outrageous claims, you turn to the lowest of the low, the scum of the earth, for a half-assed, Christophobe argument with nothing to back it up.

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Originally posted by Ormus
That's why this vitriolic insistence that a Muslim swear an oath on the Bible is kind of disconcerting. This idea that America is a "Christian country," where religious minorities must follow "Christian rules" is directly from the Christian Reconstructionist playbook. Money talks.
Again, it doesn't bother me that Ellison is being sworn in by his preferred religious text. I am more concerned about what he is capable of after he is sworn in.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:13 AM   #19
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Oh come on, Christophobe? that is as lame an label as Islamophobe - Christianity is ideas, not innate - being biased against ideas is something everyone does, and theres nothing wrong with that.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:13 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It has everything to do with this thread. But predictably, you dismiss the link out of political cowardice. You are a cover-up for radical Islam.

And I can care less about your intellectual dishonesty, your historical revisionism, and your utter hatred for Christianity. But go ahead and fill your mind with neo-Marxist propaganda. Rather than give any examples that even remotely support your outrageous claims, you turn to the lowest of the low, the scum of the earth, for a half-assed, Christophobe argument with nothing to back it up.
Well, that's all folks. I've made it a rule to stop arguing with lunatics.

Enjoy your anti-Muslim masturbatory session here.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If we are to accept the idea of Christofascism then almost by definition Islamofascism must also be - and I think that the degree of violence the Islamofascist movements are exerting/threatening to exert exeeds that of the Christofascists regardless of rhetoric. Opposing both is perfectly fine and I see no reason that I should be held accountable for the actions of Christians before criticising some Mullahs and millitants.
Nobody alive can rightfully be held accountable for such actions as the Crusades, unless they defend those who deceived followers into a religious war. "Christofascism", in my opinion, is ancient history.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:15 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Ormus
Well, that's all folks...
Someone who cannot make a distinction between radical Islam and moderate Islam isn't worth my time.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:16 AM   #23
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Oh come on, Christophobe? that is as lame an label as Islamophobe - Christianity is ideas, not innate - being biased against ideas is something everyone does, and theres nothing wrong with that.
At what part in the post was NOT exaggerated or fabricated?
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:19 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Someone who cannot make a distinction between radical Islam and moderate Islam isn't worth my time.
Someone whose entire worldview is a mirror of FOX News isn't worth my time either.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:20 AM   #25
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Originally posted by Ormus
Someone whose entire worldview is a mirror of FOX News isn't worth my time either.
Your debating skills disappoint.

I ask for specific examples, and you chicken out.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:26 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Nobody alive can rightfully be held accountable for such actions as the Crusades, unless they defend those who deceived followers into a religious war. "Christofascism", in my opinion, is ancient history.
The crusades were reaction against the expanding sphere of Islam, this however is dealing with belief in the apocalypse and/or returning to biblical law.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:30 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The crusades were reaction against the expanding sphere of Islam, this however is dealing with belief in the apocalypse and/or returning to biblical law.
It was also a great manipulation accomplished mainly because scripture was not available to the average citizen in that time period. But yes, I see your point on the establishment of religion.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:32 AM   #28
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Your debating skills disappoint.

I ask for specific examples, and you chicken out.
And I gave you plenty of specific examples, regarding the Christian Identity movement, the Christian Reconstructionist movement, and people like Howard Ahmanson, Jr., who, essentially, tie these movements to "mainstream" conservatism with their money.

But that apparently wasn't the answer you're looking for.

Quote:
And I can care less about your intellectual dishonesty, your historical revisionism, and your utter hatred for Christianity. But go ahead and fill your mind with neo-Marxist propaganda. Rather than give any examples that even remotely support your outrageous claims, you turn to the lowest of the low, the scum of the earth, for a half-assed, Christophobe argument with nothing to back it up.
This isn't a "debate" point. You just think that if you throw enough insults one way that it becomes a "debate."

Your narrow definition of "fascism" to only mean "violence" completely ignores the fact that people like fascist Spanish dictator and Hitler ally, Francisco Franco, never engaged in foreign wars or ethnic cleansing. And, likewise, if Islamic terrorism wasn't an issue, it doesn't ignore the fact that many Muslim nations have long been repressive, intolerant of minority rights (yes, that would include Christians in Muslim nations), and live in a world where "freedom" is not in their vocabulary.

The trouble with the term "Islamofascism" is that, for all the bluster, it apparently has little to do with actual definitions of fascism. Like Orwell stated, it is little more than an epithet like most of your arguments here. If you're against Islamic terrorism, just say so, without all the name-calling, alright?

But if we are to accept the notion of "Islamofascism," as an ideology, rather than a terrorism epithet, then a case can be made for the existence of "Christofascism" as an ideology. Indeed, "Christofascism" has many more legs to stand on, considering how the Church was used as an arm of the government with Franco, Salazar in Portugal, and even the provincial government of Maurice Duplessis in Québec during the 20th century. I see many conservatives in America, unknowingly, trying to recreate these kinds of regimes.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:45 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
And I gave you plenty of specific examples, regarding the Christian Identity movement, the Christian Reconstructionist movement, and people like Howard Ahmanson, Jr., who, essentially, tie these movements to "mainstream" conservatism with their money.

But that apparently wasn't the answer you're looking for.
You gave plenty of buzzwords and cited only agenda-driven leftists. I can care less about what fanatics like Karen Armstrong has to say about the "religious right."

Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
Your narrow definition of "fascism" to only mean "violence" completely ignores the fact that people like fascist Spanish dictator and Hitler ally, Francisco Franco, never engaged in foreign wars or ethnic cleansing. And, likewise, if Islamic terrorism wasn't an issue, it doesn't ignore the fact that many Muslim nations have long been repressive, intolerant of minority rights (yes, that would include Christians in Muslim nations), and live in a world where "freedom" is not in their vocabulary.
It also includes the captivity of "infidels" under Sharia law, that call for laws that the Koran doesn't even advocate, like burquas, for example.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
But if we are to accept the notion of "Islamofascism," as an ideology, rather than a terrorism epithet, then a case can be made for the existence of "Christofascism" as an ideology.
It could, in a fantasy world. Utopian fantasizers often exaggerate the threat, the influence, and the power of "the religious right." I agree that Pat Robertson, being a religious figure, was inapproprate for calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez. But to give credit to the claims of anti-Christian fanatics, Robertson's followers would have to fly to Venezuela and shoot him.
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Old 12-02-2006, 12:00 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
You gave plenty of buzzwords and cited only agenda-driven leftists. I can care less about what fanatics like Karen Armstrong has to say about the "religious right."
Umm..."Christian Identity" and "Christian Reconstructionism" are two specifically defined movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...onstructionism

And I already pointed out that, although they are outside the mainstream of conservative Christianity, their theology is finding its way into mainstream.

Quote:
It could, in a fantasy world. Utopian fantasizers often exaggerate the threat, the influence, and the power of "the religious right." I agree that Pat Robertson, being a religious figure, was inapproprate for calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez. But to give credit to the claims of anti-Christian fanatics, Robertson's followers would have to fly to Venezuela and shoot him.
Again, "violence" is not an inherent definer of "fascism." Like I said, either "Islamofascism" is a meaningless epithet, which, in that case, "Christofascism" is an equally meaningless epithet; or, if we are to actually start applying the actual political definition of "fascism" into this discourse (God forbid!), I've already cited three historical regimes, none of which engaged in foreign wars or terrorism, but had repressive governments that severely restricted freedoms and did not tolerate minority dissent, that fit the bill, using Christianity to cement their power.

If we are to accept this political definition, then "Islamofascism" takes on a whole new connotation, which not only covers people like Osama bin Laden, but also nations like Saudi Arabia, who do not support Al Qaeda, engage in foreign wars, or commit genocide, but have tightly controlled governments that have no tolerance for minority rights or beliefs, and use Islam to cement their authority and power.

So which is it? I guess we need to come up with a mutual definition of what "Islamofascism" is before we even try to continue this discussion.
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