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Old 09-24-2003, 12:17 PM   #31
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Originally posted by womanfish
To say to burn it is callous and offensive to those people.
Considering I was writing to an audience of Christians here, it didn't cross my mind. And, of course, it was more of a metaphor than an actual incitement to combustion.

So, to prevent a diversion, I apologize to any Jews who might find that statement to be offensive.

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Old 09-24-2003, 12:23 PM   #32
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I know where you are coming from, by my religious past is rooted in that. I no longer am an "old testament guy" but I know there are those people out there. Does it make the most sense to me? Not really, but there are a lot of religions out there that don't make a lot of sense to me. It doesn't invalidate them.

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Old 09-25-2003, 03:09 AM   #33
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Hang on guys...please don't ignore the Old Testament. It's the Foundation of Christian belief! Once you take away the foundation, whatever you are left with is not so strong anymore.
The biggest threat against the bible's foundation is Evolution.
If you start to disregared the first 10 Chapters of Genisis then Evolution is too easy to accept.

Anyways there are some highly interesting stories in the Old testament that apply to today.... My favorite being the story of Daniel
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Old 09-25-2003, 03:17 AM   #34
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are you are talking about the lion's den?



they tried a reenactment in the region recently
and it did not turn out so good for the lion this time.
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Old 09-25-2003, 03:46 AM   #35
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Hang on guys...please don't ignore the Old Testament. It's the Foundation of Christian belief!
Oh really? How so?
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Old 09-25-2003, 05:05 AM   #36
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Because Christ was phrophecied in the old testament. sorry can't spell at the moment

Many old testament prophecies were fulfilled while Christ was on Earth. There are many referances to the old testament in the new testament. If you don't believe Abraham or Moses or King David or Daniel then what's the point.... how can you then believe in the reserection??!
You'll end up believing that Jesus was just a plain person who died, created a cult following and nothing else.

There is so much more to Daniel than the Lions den too!!
Infact that book has just as many end time prochicies as Revelation.

If you deny the fall of Adam and Eve, then what would your belief of sin be??
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Old 09-25-2003, 07:12 AM   #37
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Originally posted by stagman
Hang on guys...please don't ignore the Old Testament. It's the Foundation of Christian belief! Once you take away the foundation, whatever you are left with is not so strong anymore.
The biggest threat against the bible's foundation is Evolution.
If you start to disregared the first 10 Chapters of Genisis then Evolution is too easy to accept.
The early Church fathers considered throwing out the entire Old Testament, because they believed that Jesus was the fulfillment of it. They kept it, however, because they realized that the New Testament alluded to it, so its main purpose, to them, was for historical context. The crux of morality is supposed to come from the New Testament, and St. Paul would be spinning in his tomb, if he realized that we were putting Jesus' commandment, "Love one another," subordinate to the Ten Commandments.

Secondly, your argument in support of creationism is precisely why most rational people feel thrown out of Christianity. There are plenty of people who believe that the creation myths were merely metaphors and that evolution was initiated by God. Those who cry the loudest against evolution, I think, are the greatest purveyors of false prophetry. After all, what's more important: loving one another or having a stance on creationism or evolution? It seems like the latter certainly gets more attention, merely because loving one another would put a crimp on their homophobic tirades.

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Old 09-25-2003, 07:21 AM   #38
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If you deny the fall of Adam and Eve, then what would your belief of sin be??
The inevitable outcome of free will. If we are not as free to choose evil as we are free to choose good, then we do not have free will.

I'd also beware of supposed "end time prophesies." Keep in mind that, in interpreting the Old Testament literally, the Pharisees expected a warrior Messiah who would vanquish their enemies and exult them as the greatest material "kingdom" on Earth. As we can see, Jesus certainly did not meet their expectations.

So, rather than learn from the Pharisees mistakes, how do we expect Jesus' Second Coming? A warrior Messiah who will come down from Heaven to vanquish our enemies and exult His believers to create a "Heaven on Earth." So if Jesus returns and equally doesn't meet our expectations, I'm sure that He'll be equally rejected by the religious mainstream, merely because He won't be violent and hateful enough for them.

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Old 09-25-2003, 07:55 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by stagman
Hang on guys...please don't ignore the Old Testament. It's the Foundation of Christian belief!
Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler
Oh really? How so?
Quote:
Originally posted by stagman
[B]Because Christ was phrophecied in the old testament...

Many old testament prophecies were fulfilled while Christ was on Earth. There are many referances to the old testament in the new testament.
Yes and, unfortunately, many Christians curiously seem to ignore or place less importance on Jesus' words than they do the stories and the Law of the Old Testament. They abuse the O.T. I have heard MANY Christians use the saying 'an eye for an eye' as justification for revenge while ignoring Christ's dismissal of that particular saying. I'm not saying you do that, but many Christians do. That is where I have a problem with saying the Old Testament is "the foundation of Christian Belief." The sayings and actions of Christ are the foundation of Christian belief.

Quote:
If you don't believe Abraham or Moses or King David or Daniel then what's the point.... how can you then believe in the reserection??!
You'll end up believing that Jesus was just a plain person who died, created a cult following and nothing else.
I don't subscribe to most literal interpretations of the Bible but I do try to follow the sayings of Jesus, to some extent anyway.
Quote:
There is so much more to Daniel than the Lions den too!!
Infact that book has just as many end time prochicies as Revelation.
The interpretations of the so-called "end time prophecies" of the book of Revelation are nothing more than speculation. I don't believe in the Evangelical Church's notion of the meaning of the so-called "end time prophecies."
Quote:
If you deny the fall of Adam and Eve, then what would your belief of sin be??
"Sin" is our darker nature. Said darker nature exists regardless of the story of Adam and Eve.


*edited for typo
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Old 09-25-2003, 08:39 AM   #40
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You're absolutley right, the Religous mainstream will ignore Christ's second coming. Many people have been and will be fooled by false teaching.
Loving one another is very,very important, but you must also be right with god yourself. If you ignore his word (that does include "7 day Creation" and "The Fall") then you are dishonouring him. Your own relationship with god can end up being meaningless if your not carefull.

When I get the time I will go into the truths of Creation and the Lies of Evolution. Can you really believe Evolution?? They change their thoeries every month. They've created their own religion or cult.



That Eye for an Eye quote... I hate when scripture is taken out of context.

I'm Evangelical. I believe those of us that know Jesus should be sharing the word of God to anyone we can.
That is the crux of being a so called Evangelical.

So, where did this dark nature come from???

It's gettin to late for this.. i gotta go to bed.
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Old 09-25-2003, 11:25 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The inevitable outcome of free will. If we are not as free to choose evil as we are free to choose good, then we do not have free will.
We are incapable of choosing good all the time. That is the price of sin.

"There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23



A discussion of eschatology would be interesting.
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Old 09-25-2003, 11:57 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by stagman
You're absolutley right, the Religous mainstream will ignore Christ's second coming. Many people have been and will be fooled by false teaching.
Loving one another is very,very important, but you must also be right with god yourself. If you ignore his word (that does include "7 day Creation" and "The Fall") then you are dishonouring him. Your own relationship with god can end up being meaningless if your not carefull.

When I get the time I will go into the truths of Creation and the Lies of Evolution. Can you really believe Evolution?? They change their thoeries every month. They've created their own religion or cult.



That Eye for an Eye quote... I hate when scripture is taken out of context.

I'm Evangelical. I believe those of us that know Jesus should be sharing the word of God to anyone we can.
That is the crux of being a so called Evangelical.

So, where did this dark nature come from???

It's gettin to late for this.. i gotta go to bed.

Bring on another reason for me to turn further away from organized religion. I really feel sorry for people who state their small religous belief system as if it were the one and only truth. Wake up, travel the world, open your eyes and your mind, study OTHER people's cultures, OTHER people's religions, OTHER people's beliefs and embrace the bigger picture of what "religion" and "belief" is for everyone on this planet - a longing for belonging and support through something bigger than themselves.

IMO, regailing us with what your personal view is of the "myths of evolution" brings no one any closer to the true meaning of what Christianity is (which I assume is your purpose), which is to do good to others. Most people I know that do go out and "evangelize" go about it so backwards and negativly that it's effect is usually degrading, belittling and just plain irritating to the people they are trying to attract. I'm not saying this applies to you stagman, but it's been my overall experience.

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Old 09-25-2003, 12:12 PM   #43
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Bring on another reason for me to turn further away from organized religion. I really feel sorry for people who state their small religous belief system as if it were the one and only truth. Wake up, travel the world, open your eyes and your mind, study OTHER people's cultures, OTHER people's religions, OTHER people's beliefs and embrace the bigger picture of what "religion" and "belief" is for everyone on this planet - a longing for belonging and support through something bigger than themselves.
These are not mutually exclusive. I believe it is very important to understand other faiths and their tenets.

What should someone do, however, when his or her God or god states explicitly (or implies) exclusivity? Should they reject their faith or is it reasonable to allow them to follow their faith?
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Old 09-25-2003, 12:33 PM   #44
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I understand that.

You can follow your faith, but not ignore everyone elses. The problem being, when you state yours as "the truth" and others as just some flights of fancy, it totally invalidates the other persons belief system. I have my set of spiritual beliefs. But i know I have them because they work for me, not because they are some divine truth that is better than everyone elses.

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Old 09-25-2003, 06:13 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by stagman
Loving one another is very,very important, but you must also be right with god yourself. If you ignore his word (that does include "7 day Creation" and "The Fall") then you are dishonouring him. Your own relationship with god can end up being meaningless if your not carefull.
You're entitled to your opinion, but that's it...your opinion. Evangelical sects believe that about "ignoring His word"; not all of Christianity does. But I also know how "evangelical" sects operate, as in trying to monopolize Christianity and try and say that everyone who doesn't agree with their interpretation of Christianity is evil. Well, frankly, evangelical Christians weren't the first Christians nor will they be the last...and nor do I think they are correct. Period. But, as I have said, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.

Quote:
When I get the time I will go into the truths of Creation and the Lies of Evolution. Can you really believe Evolution?? They change their thoeries every month. They've created their own religion or cult.
No, a "religion or cult" has fixed beliefs that are immovable and forced upon its believers, no matter how preposterous they are and no matter how much these beliefs are disproven. A scientific theory, by nature, changes and evolves, according to scientific evidence. Parts of the scientific theory that are disproven are thus altered.

Literal creationism is about as preposterous and disproven as it gets, but I do believe that God certainly had His hand at creation...through evolution.

Quote:
I'm Evangelical. I believe those of us that know Jesus should be sharing the word of God to anyone we can.
That is the crux of being a so called Evangelical.
I'm Melon. I share the Word of God as well. It usually causes arguments in here, but I hope no one takes it personally.

Melon
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