The Tea Party

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but will the tea partiers push the far right though the primaries, only to loose in the general?

and who will their nominee be in 2012? it's fair to speculate that their influence will be much different over the course of the next three years, but could they put up with a Romney or a Jeb Bush? or is only Palin acceptable?

I think you will accept that the 2008 election had some 'left wing' wing nuts, their preferred candidate may have been a Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich or some other
some would consider the ANSWER crowd a 'wing nut' group

well, these people were passionate, and I believe the huge majority of them were so united against Bush, that they showed up and voted for Obama, who was positioning himself to be more of a moderate than Hillary, you do recall his pledge to end the partisan bickering and that he would work with and even appoint Republicans?

I can't say for sure how all of this will play out.

I do think it is wrong to dismiss right wing - wing nuts

Just like the GOP did with left wing - wing nuts.

To answer your question directly, at the end of the primaries and conventions, I think it is likely the 'tea partiers' will be united in the 'greater good' of stopping Obama, that they would vote for a Romney - (? insert good pick here) ticket.
 
I expected to get that
sooner than later

it seems like anytime anyone puts up examples in here
the response is that it is not the same thing

two different events or people are never the exact same

and seldom if ever is there an exact one for one exchange

One might say that 'third party' candidate Ross Perot affected the 1992 Presidential election and that in 2000 Ralph Nader's 3rd party candidacy did the same.

So the response is that they were not similar and their supporters were not equivalent?

The premise is that a 3rd party candidate can affect the out come of a election.
 
The Tea Party people supporting Republicans defeats the entire premise of the Tea Party. I thought they were tired of the two parties, so wanted to break away. Som of the Republicans simply changed their verbiage to make it sound like more Tea Party like, but hey whaddya know, back to Square 1.
 
I wouldn't vote for Palin, and this is coming from a conservative republican. :| I would want to see someone like Mitt Romney or even Scot Brown.

Good to hear one of you say this.:up::up:

I was watching Chris Matthews the other night and he asked a few people he had on if there was anyone in the party who could take her on, out shine her, etc. That guest said John Kaisch(sp) and Haley Barbour both could. Matthews immediately responded by saying "great, good to hear that, I may not agree with or vote for those guys, but I know they're smart, reasonable people who would represent their party well."

I will say the same for Romney and Brown. I find Brown to be much more likable than Romney who I find to be extremely disingenuous, but neither one is a dangerous, empty headed and highly corrupt ideologue who accuses their opponents of being socialists and running death panels.

Brown and Romney could talk for a while about any number of issues facing the country. Palin has no clue and I would think would be an embarrassment to any Republican that remembers people as smart as Nixon, Kissinger, Chuck Hagel, William Cohen, Brent Scowcroft, James Baker, John Warner, etc. I am not saying I agree with all of these guys, but how does a party go from having people like this as their public face to having someone like Palin?
 
I think you will accept that the 2008 election had some 'left wing' wing nuts, their preferred candidate may have been a Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich or some other
some would consider the ANSWER crowd a 'wing nut' group

well, these people were passionate, and I believe the huge majority of them were so united against Bush, that they showed up and voted for Obama, who was positioning himself to be more of a moderate than Hillary, you do recall his pledge to end the partisan bickering and that he would work with and even appoint Republicans?

I can't say for sure how all of this will play out.

I do think it is wrong to dismiss right wing - wing nuts

Just like the GOP did with left wing - wing nuts.

To answer your question directly, at the end of the primaries and conventions, I think it is likely the 'tea partiers' will be united in the 'greater good' of stopping Obama, that they would vote for a Romney - (? insert good pick here) ticket.

I think history is on your side, but that there is a big question mark going into 2012 with the Tea Party.

The history: despite the far right screaming and yelling and threatening to stay home on McCain, it appears as if they were out for him in full force by the time the summer of 2008 hit. Into the fall, and then they voted for him in November. Did Palin help? That is a big question also.

There are also plenty of other examples of the far left or the far right showing up for the more moderate guy in the general, even if not enthusiastically.

The big question: The Tea Party, a whole new movement, bent on challenging many sitting Republicans in primaries, is a lot more passionate and better organized than the various right wing ideologues who complained about the "too moderate" general candidates before. Will they hold their noses and vote to get Obama out, or will they, after losing the primary, split off as their own party and make a full run at it?

Doing so would probably only help Obama by taking votes away from Romney or Jeb, but if NY 23 is any indicator, the Tea Baggers do not care about that.

Of course, the only thing that really matters in all of this is independents. That is what made the difference for Obama. The Tea Party and mainstream Republicans alone can not be enough to defeat Obama, especially given the advantage Democrats have in voter registration. Whoever wins will obviously have to bring independents with their own party.
 
Brown is a 'tea party' victory.

They were fired up and ready to go.

There was a momentum flow in 2008

There is a momentum flow in 2010.
 
Brown is a 'tea party' victory.

Which shows me they aren't the "principaled" group they try and come off as...

Both Rush and Beck say he's far too moderate, he voted for socialist healthcare at the state level.

Brown was an opportunitist and used them, and vice versa.
 
Well, Ok
it is things like that that win elections
principles are really just a load of rubbish, anyway

again 2008 was more of a coalition againt Bush Cheney than anything else
look at all the elections, since then, the Dems have pretty much had their clocks cleaned

good chance Obama's Senate seat and even Biden's could end up in GOP hands,
to lose those 2 along with Kennedy's seat two years after 2008 landslide will one of the quickest reversals I can ever recall.

just callin it as I am seeing it,
not leading with how I will vote or want the outcomes to be.
 
deep, if what you are trying to say is that the climate appears to be favorable to the GOP, then i think everyone in America agrees with you.
 
deep, if what you are trying to say is that the climate appears to be favorable to the GOP, then i think everyone in America agrees with you.


It took 8 years of one of the worse Presidencies in U S history for the Dems to gain 8 Senate seats in 2008.

And only two years for a complete reversal?


What I am saying is that I am surprised by how quick this reversal might come.

Senator Bayh's Domino Effect
Democrats could wind up with only 52 Senate seats.

By JOHN FUND

Political handicappers Larry Sabato and Nate Silver both projected recently that if the November election were held today, Democrats would wind up with only 52 Senate seats, a net loss of seven. Evan Bayh's sudden retirement yesterday is prompting most observers to give Republicans an edge to capture his vacant seat, which would mean a net loss of eight Democratic seats.

Such a setback isn't unprecedented. In "wave" elections, one party tends to win all of the close races -- in 2008 Democrats captured eight seats from Republicans by running the table on competitive Senate seats.
 
this is the worst economic crisis since the 1930s.

when the economy is good, incumbents win. when the economy is bad, incumbents lose. see 1994.

and the true awfulness of Bush didn't settle in and become common knowledge until roughly 2005, and in 2004 and 2002 we were still scared to death that the only thing standing between us and another 9/11 was Bush/Cheney.

i fully expect that the Democrats are going to lose big in the fall. i think they deserve to -- not because of their legislation (HCR is a model of moderation) but because they're pathetic.

Obama himself remains in solid shape, politically. the silver lining in this, as i see it, and despite my dashed dreams of substantive change that would actually reduce suffering, more divided government might eventually lead to better governance like we saw in the middle Clinton years (1995-1998).
 
Obama himself remains in solid shape, politically. the silver lining in this, as i see it, and despite my dashed dreams of substantive change that would actually reduce suffering, more divided government might eventually lead to better governance like we saw in the middle Clinton years (1995-1998).
I'm not sure we can hope that for this group of Republicans. I wasn't old enough to follow the Clinton years, but they can't have been as batshit insane as the Republicans today.
 
I'm not sure we can hope that for this group of Republicans. I wasn't old enough to follow the Clinton years, but they can't have been as batshit insane as the Republicans today.



it's hard to say ... i was in high school when it happened, and they seemed crazy to me. it was the same platform -- "i should be applauded for my guns and for my religion and i want to get the guv'ment off our backs and lower taxes because that fixes everything."

i think 9-11 did radicalize everything, to a degree. but someone older than i might be able to put it into better context.
 
I'm not sure we can hope that for this group of Republicans. I wasn't old enough to follow the Clinton years, but they can't have been as batshit insane as the Republicans today.


I appreciate you were not there

but take it from someone that was there

they were even worse, I expected this,

that is why during the Dem primaries, I believed Hillary was the better choice for the Dems, she was battle tested big time, I believe she would have had more successes than Obama.
 
I appreciate you were not there

but take it from someone that was there

they were even worse, I expected this,

that is why during the Dem primaries, I believed Hillary was the better choice for the Dems, she was battle tested big time, I believe she would have had more successes than Obama.

But would she make better policies?
 
The trick for any Administration is getting stuff done.

Obama has got very little done.

The Bush Administration in 2000 was more effective.

And keep in mind, Bush had no mandate, loss the popular vote and it took the Supreme court to get him into office.

Bush did not have 60 GOP Senators, but he was able to get a huge tax cut through by June of 2000. He never got the 60 votes that Obama has been trying to get for Health Care.

He did it with reconciliation
one bill passed in the House, one bill in the Senate
he never brought it back for a final vote.

Obama should have had Health Care completed by July or August at the latest.

He might have been able to put more efforts into the Israel / Palestinian problem that is at the crux of some many of our Foreign policy concerns.

Obama has tried to follow a more moderate road then he campaigned on, similar to what Hillary was presenting in the primaries.
I believe her policies would have been similar to what Obama has proposed, the main difference is that she would have been more successful in getting them passed.
 
But would she make better policies?



i think HRC would have been more successful at getting Health Care through, maybe.

however, i don't think she would have tackled health care because of what happened in 1993/4.

and i think that GOP opposition to her would be equally as fierce as to Obama, if not worse.
 
Obama himself remains in solid shape, politically. the silver lining in this, as i see it, and despite my dashed dreams of substantive change that would actually reduce suffering, more divided government might eventually lead to better governance like we saw in the middle Clinton years (1995-1998).

Like U2MDFan and Deep, I would say the Republicans were far worse in the Clinton years. Dan Burton was in his heyday, you had Whitewater, millions spent, no illegality found, you had Vince Foster, millions spent, no illegality found, you had a batshit impeachment process for nothing and millions spent on Ken Starr in the entire process. Imagine if the Democrats had appointed a special prosecutor to go after Bush when he was in Office? They would have had ads on every channel comparing them to Osama.

You are right, 1995-1998 had its successes, but it seems it was mostly due to Clinton's political skills/personal popularity and the good economy, not really due to a spirit of cooperation among Republicans.

1995: The Republicans shut down the government 2 times to try and intimidate Clinton into gutting Medicare and Medicaid and pass massive, budget busting tax cuts. This was a divisive time, but Clinton won out when he told the Republicans flat out that they "would have to get someone else to sit in this chair to pass that budget."

This started a trend. The Republicans would never get their budget work done on time, and they more or less had to accept Clinton priority filled budgets. This was fine by them, they calculated, as the economy was good, the country was happy and they would not have to govern. They began to run out the clock on Clinton, try and deny him any credit for the strong economy and went to work on conspiracy theories to distract everyone. The Republicans never got a budget even remotely reflecting their desire to cut taxes deeply across the board, eliminate the estate and capital gains tax and cut education, raid the SS trust fund, etc.

Some good things happened, but mostly a function of the fact that it is easier for reasonable people in both parties to work together, from a political liability standpoint, when times are good.

Welfare Reform: The Democrats propose the Work and Responsibility Act of 1994, introduced in both Houses, requiring work and time limits but providing job training, health care and child care funding so states can actually move recipients into jobs. The Republicans gut the jobs training, health care and child care provisions and say that Clinton is anti work and anti family for vetoing the legislation that had turned into nothing more than an unfunded mandate. The Republicans finally realized in 1996 that they would have to accept Clinton's principles for welfare reform or else face re election having not got anything done here. Clinton had been for "ending welfare as we know it" since 1980, but Gingrich tried to take credit.

Health Care reform: Kassebaum-Kennedy- you had a moderate Republican, Nancy Kassebaum and Ted Kennedy working across party lines. A similar situation with the creation of S-Chip in 1997. This was only possible because the economy was good and the Republicans could spend some money on domestic affairs without their base having a fit. Kennedy and Kassebaum are gone now.

The 1997 Taxpayer relief act: Got alot of Clinton priorities passed, and got alot of Democratic and Republican tax priorities passed. Again, it is easy to cut taxes and expand college education funding dramatically when the economy and therefore revenues are strong. Alot of the moderates who worked on this, like Pete Domenici and John Breaux, are gone.

In one way the Republicans were better: you had your nuts like Burton, Gingrich and Livingston hiring Ken Starr, etc, but you had many more in the mold of Pete Domenici, John Warner, Nancy Kassebaum, etc back then. The Republican party in the 1990s had alot more Olympia Snowes and Susan Collins. Obama's transportation Secretary Ray Lahood was in Congress, as was a guy who spoke at the DNC in 2008, Jim Leach.

Today's Republicans are not quite as conspiracy theorist crazy, nor are they as militant on things like abortion, but the difference is there are much fewer reasonable ones to balance the crazier ones out. Since I don't care one bit about abortion stances either way, I would eliminate that as a factor and say in conclusion, that they are not as bad today, but they certainly have the potential. If Obama gets re elected or even before 2012 things get better in any way, the personal attacks will intensify and be worse on the "non real American" Obama than they were on a certain white guy from Arkansas.
 
I thought Obama campaigned as more of a moderate and that's part of the problem, that he's not governing as one or not perceived to be

Yes, he did campaign as more of a moderate when it was down to him and HRC.

The 2 discernible differences were on trade and health care.

Where HRC was calling for a "trade timeout" and Obama was taking a "lets go ahead with free and fair trade, we know what we have gotten wrong in the past, lets just fix it and skip the study."

Health Care, Obama campaigned against the individual mandate that HRC was making a centerpiece of universal coverage, and instead stressed affordability as the key. While affordability is a big part of the bill in Congress now, he did wind up picking up the individual mandate from HRC after he was elected.

So basically, they were very similar except HRC tacked a little to the economic populist side. Undoubtedly, because 2 of the big head to head primaries were Ohio and Pennsylvania.
 
i think HRC would have been more successful at getting Health Care through, maybe.

however, i don't think she would have tackled health care because of what happened in 1993/4.

and i think that GOP opposition to her would be equally as fierce as to Obama, if not worse.

This is true.

I still think Obama was the better person to have as President, on health care and on other issues, if only because the Congress would not have trusted Hillary given her shutting them out in 1993/4.

As for the GOP opposition, it would have been exactly like you say. People think its bad with Obama- they gave him a month long honeymoon. Hillary would have probably already killed 10 of Vince Foster's kids by month #1 and had 3 special prosecutors working full time to dig up dirt on her.

However, I think if Obama had talked to Hillary or Emmanuel or someone else who was there in 1994, he would have gotten some valuable advice on how to proceed with the bill. I don't know obviously, but I have a sneaking suspicion he did not consult the "Clinton people" extensively.

If he did, he would have known how fierce the opposition was going to be, they would have told him that putting this out there and not defending it was a HUGE mistake and would play right into the GOP's hands, etc. I think it was Carville and Begala who first introduced the principle "never let your opponent define you before you define yourself."

The Clinton people are also big on "it's the economy, stupid" and they are big on how things are perceived. The health care bill is of course one of the best things we can do for our budget and our economy, but I think given the recession, they would have advised Obama to do this:

-Pass the non controversial regulatory reforms on health insurance companies, like pre existing conditions, etc in 2009.
-Pass some affordability incentives in 2009. This is widely supported across party lines.
-Pass some kind of tort reform(not the caps that Republicans want) but real tort reform in 2009.

All of this is in the bill right now, sitting there dormant.

-Since the subsidies do not take effect until 2014 anyway, HRC would have probably advised against trying to put these and the taxes to pay for them through in 2009. She would have argued that it is far more important to pivot right from the non controversial health care items right to a "laser beam" focus on the economy. Maybe get the jobs bill and small business program passed in late 2009 instead of the buying of Nebraska.
-No one would get their health care coverage delayed anyway by this move, and Obama, a big believer in the "urgency of now" could have still got all elements of a health care bill through in his 1st term if he had waited until 2011 when the economy will be better.

I think it would have looked alot more like I described had Hillary won or had Obama consulted her and her circle as opposed to what he seemingly went on- his instincts and his own Washington inexperienced circle.

I frankly wish Obama had taken this incremental approach as he would have already had the confidence of the American people on the Health Care issue by the time he went to expand coverage and explain that the "cadillac tax" was not going to kill anyone.
 
The trick for any Administration is getting stuff done.

Obama has got very little done.

The Bush Administration in 2000 was more effective.

And keep in mind, Bush had no mandate, loss the popular vote and it took the Supreme court to get him into office.

Bush did not have 60 GOP Senators, but he was able to get a huge tax cut through by June of 2000. He never got the 60 votes that Obama has been trying to get for Health Care.

He did it with reconciliation
one bill passed in the House, one bill in the Senate
he never brought it back for a final vote.

Obama should have had Health Care completed by July or August at the latest.

He might have been able to put more efforts into the Israel / Palestinian problem that is at the crux of some many of our Foreign policy concerns.

Obama has tried to follow a more moderate road then he campaigned on, similar to what Hillary was presenting in the primaries.
I believe her policies would have been similar to what Obama has proposed, the main difference is that she would have been more successful in getting them passed.

Bush came in at a very easy time compared to Obama...
 
Bush came in at a very easy time compared to Obama...

It was also 2001, not 2000.

Bush could not get 60 votes for his tax cuts, but Obama was able to get 61 or 62 for the stimulus(Collins, Specter, Snowe(?))

And the reconciliation that worked for the tax cuts can not be used to pass meaningful health care reform as regulatory matters can not go through under the rules of reconciliation.
 
Bush did not have 60 GOP Senators, but he was able to get a huge tax cut through by June of 2000. He never got the 60 votes that Obama has been trying to get for Health Care.

He did it with reconciliation
one bill passed in the House, one bill in the Senate
he never brought it back for a final vote.

Obama should have had Health Care completed by July or August at the latest.

Do you think reconciliation should have been used to pass the Democrats' health care bill?
 
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