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Old 04-22-2010, 12:46 PM   #706
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I came across some interesting quotes today – although the article is a few years old, I thought it was relevant to this discussion...

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Originally Posted by ByAlex Epstein(Montegomery Advertiser, September 16, 2007
In America, equality should mean only one thing: freedom for all. If business and wages were deregulated, we would see a dramatic rise in economic opportunity. If education and medicine were left free, with America's businessmen, doctors, and educators liberated to offer education and medicine at all different price points, we would see quality and price improvements like those for computers or flat-panel television sets. But these benefits of freedom require that we recognize the moral right of each individual to enjoy whatever he produces--and recognize that none of us has a right to something for nothing.
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Consider how the wealthiest individuals in any free economy, businessmen, make their money. The job of a businessman is to orchestrate productive enterprises that efficiently coordinate people, resources, and tools to create valuable products. Businessmen profit when they bring out valuable products at desirable prices; thus, they are continually making more, better, and cheaper products for everyone to purchase. Businessmen profit when they make others more productive; thus, they are continually seeking to create new jobs that can add to their bottom line, and providing their workers with as many productivity-enhancing tools and technologies as they can. Businessmen's pursuit of profit has been the driving force behind the incalculable increase in our standard of living over the last 150 years--and economic history shows that the freer they are left to make money, the greater the increase in productivity and wages at all levels.
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What then explains the poor educational opportunities, growing healthcare costs, and stagnating wages that are real problems for many Americans?
Government policies based on the same egalitarian mentality that denounces "income inequality." In the name of giving citizens "equal access" to education and medicine, the government has virtually taken over these fields, placing crippling controls on both producers and consumers. In the name of equalizing income, it enforces minimum-wage and anti-firing laws that make it difficult for eager newcomers to enter the job market. In the name of saving us from the alleged evils of rich Big Business, it enforces endless regulations that apply to every business, decreasing the productivity of all and making it hard for new business ventures to succeed.
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Old 04-22-2010, 02:22 PM   #707
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Those are only interesting because they are so completely slanted to one side of the argument

pure propaganda


And, I live in the wealthiest city in America, and have always been a registered Republican.
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Old 04-22-2010, 02:42 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I came across some interesting quotes today – although the article is a few years old, I thought it was relevant to this discussion...


these are as foolishly utopian as any aspect of communism.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:52 PM   #709
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Those are only interesting because they are so completely slanted to one side of the argument

pure propaganda


And, I live in the wealthiest city in America, and have always been a registered Republican.
I apologize - I thought it was obvious it was an editorial.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:59 PM   #710
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these are as foolishly utopian as any aspect of communism.
You're right I suppose. I should just pray and hope the public officials will always keep my best interest in mind (while keeping their friends wealthy and protected).
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:49 PM   #711
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I've never in my life seen an example of anything being completely taken care of by charity.
Do you expect better results with government run charity?
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:59 PM   #712
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Do you expect better results with government run charity?
I expect better results from a system that doesn't allow you to deny service because it won't make you a profit. I expect better results in a system that allows those that couldn't before afford preventative medicine.

If you think it's OK to allow profit to determine if your mother lives or dies, then so be it, live by that "principle". I can't.
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:11 PM   #713
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However, we have these folks currently in office that are unlikely to pass new legislation that would probably end their own careers.
Yes.

Senator for life Democrat and Senator for life Republican most likely keep viable opposing candidates away by showing them the size of their big business funded war chest.

That would be enough to intimidate me out of running!

So if Senator for life knows that he will likely get bounced should a viable, competent opponent emerge, he will do everything possible to prevent the emergence of such a candidate. One of the easiest ways to do this is to build a big war chest and say "match that, you jerk."

Hard to imagine them giving that up, you are 100% right.

If campaign finance reform were to pass, it would take an enormous dose of "i'm doing what is right for our democracy, personal implications aside" from our elected officials.



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My overall fear is that the US citizens will be sold on the notion that the crises is the fault of capitalism
I fear this too. I hope there is no backlash against what is an ultimately flawed yet still the best system known to man to provide opportunity and quality of life to the greatest number of people.

Unregulated, unfettered, fraud promoting and government crony capitalism, sure, that caused the crisis. So it has its limitations and extremes that can cause issues, but again, this is no different than in any other system.

But capitalism as a system, as a framework of ideas based on private property, entreprneurship, free movement of labor, equal opportunity, merit, etc- far from caused or set up this crisis.

People need to realize, capitalism has its faults, but it ultimately is with us, as a result of the complete and utter failure of every other system tried before it and since its inception(communism).

A flawed human nature in a flawed world will produce a big set of flawed systems. However, I think the evidence shows capitalism, as a means of economic organization, minimizes the flaws and maximizes the benefits the best of any system.
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:18 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post

If you think it's OK to allow profit to determine if your mother lives or dies, then so be it, live by that "principle". I can't.
Working with your example here -

Who would you rather perform critical surgery on your mother - a highly paid veteran doctor that graduated from Johns Hopskins or a community college drop out wearing a hemp Che t-shirt doing it for free?
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:19 PM   #715
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Originally Posted by U2387 View Post
Yes.

Senator for life Democrat and Senator for life Republican most likely keep viable opposing candidates away by showing them the size of their big business funded war chest.

That would be enough to intimidate me out of running!

So if Senator for life knows that he will likely get bounced should a viable, competent opponent emerge, he will do everything possible to prevent the emergence of such a candidate. One of the easiest ways to do this is to build a big war chest and say "match that, you jerk."

Hard to imagine them giving that up, you are 100% right.

If campaign finance reform were to pass, it would take an enormous dose of "i'm doing what is right for our democracy, personal implications aside" from our elected officials.





I fear this too. I hope there is no backlash against what is an ultimately flawed yet still the best system known to man to provide opportunity and quality of life to the greatest number of people.

Unregulated, unfettered, fraud promoting and government crony capitalism, sure, that caused the crisis. So it has its limitations and extremes that can cause issues, but again, this is no different than in any other system.

But capitalism as a system, as a framework of ideas based on private property, entreprneurship, free movement of labor, equal opportunity, merit, etc- far from caused or set up this crisis.

People need to realize, capitalism has its faults, but it ultimately is with us, as a result of the complete and utter failure of every other system tried before it and since its inception(communism).

A flawed human nature in a flawed world will produce a big set of flawed systems. However, I think the evidence shows capitalism, as a means of economic organization, minimizes the flaws and maximizes the benefits the best of any system.
I agree with all of this. You're a Democrat?


j/k
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:24 PM   #716
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post

Who would you rather perform critical surgery on your mother - a highly paid veteran doctor that graduated from Johns Hopskins or a community college drop out wearing a hemp Che t-shirt doing it for free?
I thought the death panels would have already made this a moot point.
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Old 04-22-2010, 10:40 PM   #717
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Working with your example here -

Who would you rather perform critical surgery on your mother - a highly paid veteran doctor that graduated from Johns Hopskins or a community college drop out wearing a hemp Che t-shirt doing it for free?
Using this example, just makes you sound a little grumpy and uninformed.

Even in the most socialized countries drop outs aren't doctors.

I'll tell you who I'd prefer, someone who got into medicine for the right reasons.
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Old 04-22-2010, 10:48 PM   #718
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I'll tell you who I'd prefer, someone who got into medicine for the right reasons.
...someone who would go through 8 to 10 years of schooling/training in order to work for free and live in equal poverty? Hopefully he can find somone like himself to work on him when he gets ill...
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:23 PM   #719
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...someone who would go through 8 to 10 years of schooling/training in order to work for free and live in equal poverty? Hopefully he can find somone like himself to work on him when he gets ill...
Work for free and live in equal poverty?

You've went from rational discussion to sounding like a Glenn Beck listener in two posts.

The days of doctors being in two tax brackets above their patients has slowly been fading away. When I was in medical device sales I knew reps that were making more than most of their doctors.

Part of it was their insurance, which I agree needs to change. But tort reform needs to happen separately from health reform. The second was reimbursement, the insurance companies are bleeding everyone dry except themselves. They would give you an OK for surgery and then do a post surgical review and say that isn't covered. Reimbursement may not be as high with this new system but it will be more consistent.

A hospital I work with here in town has about 60% of their patients covered with insurance. But only looking at a 38% rate of reimbursement for the last several years. That's fucking ridiculous.
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Old 04-23-2010, 12:02 AM   #720
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...someone who would go through 8 to 10 years of schooling/training in order to work for free and live in equal poverty? Hopefully he can find somone like himself to work on him when he gets ill...
Sources?
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