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Old 04-16-2010, 08:25 PM   #541
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U2387 hit the nail on the head. People are just not informed enough about things, and so the simplest thing can get them all clawing and screaming and shouting. I wonder, when I watch these rallies, if half the people there even know what the hell happened at the original Boston Tea Party, or what exactly it was about.

In regards to a new direction for the GOP, well, I've seen Megan McCain on TV and she actually seems to have some reasonable views. More open on societal issues, criticizes the extreme far-right, does support fiscal responsiblity (and believe me, I don't argue that. I certainly don't want our government to abuse money, and there's still a lot of wasteful spending that needs to be stopped. No disagreement there at all. I just wish these same people yelling at Obama had been bitching when the Bush administration blew money on never-ending wars, or keeping their oil buddies rich, or paying off people for scandals, or so on and so on...). So if I were going to run the GOP, I'd probably go talk to her.

Not to mention, the citizens of this country themselves can certainly share in the blame with their "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. EVERYONE, from the government down to the average citizen, has spent money on things they couldn't afford. We're all to blame for the current financial situation. And if anyone honestly thinks one party has a monopoly on fiscal responsiblity, they're dreaming. The Republicans can say they want that 'till they're blue in the face, but you know and I know that that's not even close to being true. Same for the Democrats. Seeing people constantly fall for that old line just never ceases to amaze me.

There are plenty of legitimate debates to be had over the country's finances. Shouting "SOCIALIST" or "COMMUNIST" or painting a Hitler moustache isn't one of those legitimate debates. It just makes you look and sound like a moron.

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Hi, Moonlit. Nice to see you back.
Thanks . Hello to you, too.

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Old 04-16-2010, 09:15 PM   #542
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... maybe talk to some actual teachers.
Well, I married one - does that count?
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:23 PM   #543
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plural rather than singular?
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:58 PM   #544
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Well, I married one - does that count?
We do all think exactly the same. All the time. About everything.
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:09 PM   #545
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We do all think exactly the same. All the time. About everything.
There was a quote out there but I couldn't find it. It goes something like this: "I don't trust the answer from someone whose ability to pay their mortgage depends on the answer"
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:34 PM   #546
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There was a quote out there but I couldn't find it. It goes something like this: "I don't trust the answer from someone whose ability to pay their mortgage depends on the answer"

What the hell does that even mean in this context?
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:48 AM   #547
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Not to mention, the citizens of this country themselves can certainly share in the blame with their "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. EVERYONE, from the government down to the average citizen, has spent money on things they couldn't afford. We're all to blame for the current financial situation. And if anyone honestly thinks one party has a monopoly on fiscal responsiblity, they're dreaming. The Republicans can say they want that 'till they're blue in the face, but you know and I know that that's not even close to being true. Same for the Democrats. Seeing people constantly fall for that old line just never ceases to amaze me.
So how did all the job losses start? (I'm referring to before the 2008 crash.)
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Old 04-17-2010, 01:17 AM   #548
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So how did all the job losses start? (I'm referring to before the 2008 crash.)
All sorts of reasons. People may have quit jobs they weren't happy in anymore, companies may not have been able to afford to keep people on any longer, etc. I don't mean to say they're responsible for that portion of it all, 'cause that's not their fault, and I apologize if that came off unclear. All I meant to say was that it just strikes me funny that the people at these rallies criticize the government for wasteful spending when I'm sure they could find instances in their personal finances of wasteful spending (like, for instance, shelling out $500 bucks to hear some of the politicians speak at these things). It doesn't excuse the government's screwed up spending, but I think everyone's guilty of moments of excess. That's all I meant.

Angela
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:23 AM   #549
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Well, I married one - does that count?
Well played
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Old 04-17-2010, 08:21 AM   #550
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Wealth And Inequality In America

The gap between the top 1% and everyone else hasn't been this bad since the Roaring Twenties

This chart shows average income of the top 1% as a multiple of average income of the bottom 90%.


Source: The Nation

Half of America has 2.5% of the wealth


Source: Institute for Policy Studies


Half of America has 0.5% of the stocks and bonds


Source: Institute for Policy Studies

Look at the gap grow!


Source: Professor G. William Domhoff

The last two decades were great... except for American workers


Real average earnings have not increased in 50 years



But savings rates are sinking



Poor Americans have a SLIM CHANCE of rising to the upper middle class


Source: NBER

Republican tax cuts have significantly increased the gap


Source: NBER

Income tax is getting lower and lower for the rich



America spreads the wealth FAR LESS than other developed countries



America's income spread is nearly twice the OECD average


Source: Economist
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Old 04-17-2010, 08:22 AM   #551
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Cont...

The gap is NOT growing in other countries, like France



Inequality is worst around Wall Street and Oil Land



If you aren't in the top 1%, then you're getting a bum deal



Normalized to 1979, the top 1% have seen their share of America's income more than double. The bottom 90% have seen their portion shrink.

Source: Afferent Input
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Old 04-17-2010, 08:32 AM   #552
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i've posted it elsewhere, but it bears posting again.

from another forum:

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You're eternally afraid of "big government", so you voted for a so-called small government conservative government for the first eight years of this century. And what did we get? Possibly the worst financial crisis since the Depression, war, misery and a total collapse of infrastructure.

Yeah, f*cking awful that big government, eh? Just look at what happened to countries with big governments like, oh, I don't know, half of Western Europe?

Guess what guys. Big government works for 99% of the population. The only reason you buy into the "myth" that it doesn't is because you believe the shit from the top 1%, in the useless hope that *one day* you'll be up there with them - and when that happens, you don't want big government taking a small portion of your imaginary fortune away from you for others who aren't (apparently) as good.

Get over it. Big government is good for you. The status quo is screwing you in the ass and all you're doing is asking for a bigger cock.
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Old 04-17-2010, 09:25 AM   #553
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(CNN) -- Former President Clinton said he sees parallels in the mood of the country now and on April 19, 1995, when the bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City killed 168 people while he was in the White House.

"There's the same kind of economic and social upheaval now," he told CNN's Wolf Blitzer in an interview to air Friday on "The Situation Room."

"Then, you had the rise of extremist voices on talk radio. Here, you have a billion Internet sites," Clinton said.

And although the hard-core, anti-government radicals are still a minority, "they can communicate with each other much faster and much better than they did before. The main thing that bothered us since the time of Oklahoma City was that already, there was enough use of the Internet that if you knew how to find a Web site -- and not everybody even had a computer back then, but if you knew how to find it, you could learn, for example, how to make a bomb."

"Now, everybody has got a computer; Web sites are easily accessible. And you can be highly selective and spend all of your time with people that are, you know, kind of out there with you," he continued.

Clinton said the Oklahoma City bombing -- then the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history -- was the "last in a series of very high-profile violent encounters" during the 1990s between anti-government activists and authorities.

He said the country is better protected to prevent such an attack now. But when asked whether the anti-government mood now is more intense than in the 1990s, Clinton said, "Now, there are all of these groups, you know, saying things like the current political debate is just a prelude to civil war, all of that kind of stuff."

In an interview with the New York Times on Friday, Clinton warned of the affect that angry political rhetoric might have on antigovernment radicals like Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh; he pointed to Rep. Michele Bachmann calling the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress "the gangster government" at a tax day Tea Party rally on Thursday.

"They are not gangsters," Clinton told the newspaper. "They were elected. They are not doing anything they were not elected to do."

Clinton said that demonizing the government with incendiary language can have effects beyond just rallying a crowd.

"There can be real consequences when what you say animates people who do things you would never do," Clinton told the newspaper, pointing out that McVeigh and his conspirators "were profoundly alienated, disconnected people who bought into this militant antigovernment line."

But Clinton said he didn't want to draw too tight of an analogy between then and now. He added that it's not his intent to stifle criticism of government.

"I'm not interested in gagging anybody. I actually love this political debate," Clinton said.

"Most of the Tea Party people, though, are explicitly political. You've got to give that now," he said. "Forget about whether we disagree with them or not. It's really important to be able to criticize your government and criticize elected officials. That doesn't bother me.

"Most of them have been well within bounds," Clinton said. "And they're harsh but limited criticism; in other words, they're not advocating violence or encouraging other people to do it.

"But I just think that we have to be careful," the former president added. "We've been down this road on more than one occasion before. We don't want to go down it again."
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Old 04-17-2010, 09:43 AM   #554
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i've posted it elsewhere, but it bears posting again.

from another forum:
Your quote is a bit guilty of the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. This is Latin for "after this, therefore because of this"- you are asserting that the since the financial crises happened after eight years of conservative power (really six – 2000 though 2006) they are essentially the cause of the crises.

Most mainline economist attribute to cause of the crises to several factors which do include the lax attitude of the SEC, pressure from the Left to offer subprime mortgages to unqualified people, questionable fiscal policy, and of course – good ol’ fashioned greed (which the last I checked has no political allegiance).

Additionally, there is nothing inherently wrong with distrust of an overly strong central authority. It has always been the idea that America’s government is held in check by we the governed – that the true power belongs to us and we surrender only the parts we cannot handle ourselves (military protection, law enforcement, roads…etc). Your argument about an overly strong central authority working for 99 % of the people reminds me of young Anakin Skywalker arguing for an emperor in Star Wars Episode II.
Historically, overly strong central governments eventually abuse their authority and are eventually defeated from within or by invasion.
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:28 PM   #555
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Get over it. Big government is good for you
Please consider:

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We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program…

The State is to care for the elevating national health…by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power…
These are some of the tenants of National Socialism…
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