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Old 08-23-2006, 02:03 PM   #61
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Originally posted by INDY500


Much less offensive to the New York Times no doubt.
No wonder her career is over. Any spiritual audience she ever had has to feel sinful when they see this picture.
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Old 08-23-2006, 02:11 PM   #62
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No wonder her career is over. Any spiritual audience she ever had has to feel sinful when they see this picture.


i dunno ... it kind of turns me on.
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Old 08-23-2006, 02:18 PM   #63
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i dunno ... it kind of turns me on.
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Old 08-23-2006, 02:28 PM   #64
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Old 08-23-2006, 04:52 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
But yet you exaggerate that what they desire is a Christian theocracy. Should we fear it more than an Islamist theocracy?
They want legislation based on their religious beliefs...that is encroaching on theocracy. Any theocracy should be feared, I'm not sure what your question has anything to do with this conversation.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

Nothing mentioned on the statue contradicts Christianity. Neither does the Constitution itself, the Bill of Rights, or the Declaration of Independence.

"THE LIBERATION OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS" book... never read it, but I could look into it to see what the big deal is. If private schools and homeschooling are under attack as it is, you can expect parents of those students to push religion in public schools as a direct result of a monopoly of public schools.
What does contradicting Christianity have to do with this?

How are private schools and homeschooling under attack? And why would that make parents push religion in public schools...that's ridiculous!

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

What religion has done more for America than Christianity? Somehow, the cross is ridiculously mistaken for a symbol of oppression by loons from the ACLU and other Anti-Christian organizations. It is not "intolerant" to admit that our country has been shaped by Judeo-Christian values and heritage.
Once again you have missed the point by miles!!! Supporting separation of church and state doesn't make one anti-Christian or mean anyone mistaken the cross as a symbol of oppression.

But somehow claiming, this is our land, this is our country, comes off as intolerant and not willing to share with your fellow human beings. How one can't see that I don't understand.
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:15 PM   #66
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That absolutely nauseates me. Using the statue of Liberty to promote Christianity? I have no objection to promoting Christianity as I am a practicing Catholic. The Statue of Liberty is a national icon, and it means all are welcome, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, everyone.
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:21 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
But yet you exaggerate that what they desire is a Christian theocracy. Should we fear it more than an Islamist theocracy?

Nothing mentioned on the statue contradicts Christianity. Neither does the Constitution itself, the Bill of Rights, or the Declaration of Independence.

"THE LIBERATION OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS" book... never read it, but I could look into it to see what the big deal is. If private schools and homeschooling are under attack as it is, you can expect parents of those students to push religion in public schools as a direct result of a monopoly of public schools.

What religion has done more for America than Christianity? Somehow, the cross is ridiculously mistaken for a symbol of oppression by loons from the ACLU and other Anti-Christian organizations. It is not "intolerant" to admit that our country has been shaped by Judeo-Christian values and heritage.
I fear any and all theocracy. I'm from Alabama, and I had to put up with Roy Moore's grandstanding. I don't quite think it's accurate to say America has a Judaeo-Christian heritage. It has a liberal, humanistic heritage. It can accomodate all of us. I don't think an icon of inclusiveness should be used to promote an exclusive message.
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Old 08-23-2006, 10:24 PM   #68
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


You are making a lot of assumptions about the people in that photo.

You are assuming that

(1) Those people go to that church

and that

(2)They approve of the statue

and that

(3) They are the kind of people that would "eat alive" anyone

There are a lot more assumptions that your statement could be making, but I think you get my point.
80s,

here is what they are thinking


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Old 08-23-2006, 11:29 PM   #69
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Originally posted by Irvine511

but keep on kicking at the NYT!

soon, you won't have any boogeymen left to blame.
Underestimate me at your own peril.
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Old 08-24-2006, 05:09 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
But yet you exaggerate that what they desire is a Christian theocracy. Should we fear it more than an Islamist theocracy?
Good point, in America which is a majority Christian nation any threat from Church interfering with State is from Christianity; but the magnitude of damage that would be inflicted is smaller than that done in Islamic theocracies wherever they emerge. But just because Christian Theocracy is less about slicing the hands off theives and executing girls for crimes against chastity is no reason not to defend the secular nature of government.
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Old 08-24-2006, 07:50 AM   #71
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Christian theocracy has already been a failure, and history has plenty of examples, whether that be the general imperial theocracy of medieval imperial Europe, American Puritanism, Franco in Spain, Salazar in Portugal, or Duplessis in Québec.

What has to be remembered is that the legacy of every last Christian theocracy has been a general rejection of Christianity following their inevitable collapse. Europe generally has wanted little to do with religion in post-imperial Europe, because they lived through the centuries of abuses that occur in Christian theocracies. The same can be said about modern-day Spain, Portugal, and Québec. You'd think this would be enough history to learn from to discourage wanting to create an American Christian theocracy, but apparently our religious fanatics are poor students of history.

I'll put it this way: if you want to usher in centuries of atheism, destroy the American economy, and put in the last nails in the coffin of Christianity, create an American Christian theocracy.

Melon
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Old 08-24-2006, 10:08 AM   #72
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Originally posted by INDY500


Underestimate me at your own peril.


touche ...
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Old 08-24-2006, 12:33 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Christian theocracy has already been a failure, and history has plenty of examples, whether that be the general imperial theocracy of medieval imperial Europe, American Puritanism, Franco in Spain, Salazar in Portugal, or Duplessis in Québec.

What has to be remembered is that the legacy of every last Christian theocracy has been a general rejection of Christianity following their inevitable collapse. Europe generally has wanted little to do with religion in post-imperial Europe, because they lived through the centuries of abuses that occur in Christian theocracies. The same can be said about modern-day Spain, Portugal, and Québec. You'd think this would be enough history to learn from to discourage wanting to create an American Christian theocracy, but apparently our religious fanatics are poor students of history.

I'll put it this way: if you want to usher in centuries of atheism, destroy the American economy, and put in the last nails in the coffin of Christianity, create an American Christian theocracy.

Melon
And folks, here we have what we call a "good point."

Nicely done, melon.
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Old 08-24-2006, 10:19 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Good point, in America which is a majority Christian nation any threat from Church interfering with State is from Christianity; but the magnitude of damage that would be inflicted is smaller than that done in Islamic theocracies wherever they emerge. But just because Christian Theocracy is less about slicing the hands off theives and executing girls for crimes against chastity is no reason not to defend the secular nature of government.
You've made some honest points here, but I don't believe that the majority within the "New Right" in the United States want a Christian theocracy.

If that were the case, we would have raided homes and forced people to listen to... I don't know, Jerry Falwell?

That just so happens to be the picture that has been painted on this forum by theophobic secularists.

Mind you, many of my arguments AREN'T faith-based, because the issues aren't usually addressed by the Bible itself.

America was FOUNDED against the principle of forced religion. It was also founded on, however, religious freedom. There is nothing in our constitution that separates Church and private citizens, even in public. And there is no reason why we should silence voices just because we don't agree with them.

I will say however that among the New Right, more and more evangelicals, especially Christians, have found favor in them because they represent what they believe in.

Most social issues can be argued from both a religious and a secular standpoint and still be logical. I will even go as far as saying that you can make a left wing argument on certain issues that is inspired by one's faithfulness to their religion.
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:55 PM   #75
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I have an assortment of responses to this issue.

The Statue of Liberation Through Christ in Memphis does not really offend me too much. I gathered from reading the article and reading a bit further on the (predominantly black, Southern) church's website that they see it is a general symbol of liberty that applies to their lives and heritage in numerous ways. Their ancestors in slavery found value in biblical passages relating to liberty, and likewise members of the church today see such a value in the societal ideals of liberty, particular those that this country should aspire to practice. Now, if they go and try to put religious symbols on THE Statue of Liberty in NY, then I have a huge problem with it.

And if people are really offended by this Christian version of the Statue of Libery defacing a national symbol, where is all of the outcry in Grateful Dead marketing (a band which I listen to), when they use psychedelic alterations of the Statue of Liberty on t-shirts, concert posters, etc?

People who try to piece together arguments that this country was founded as some type of Christian theocracy need to go back another 1700 years and realize that the New Testament itself does NOT call for the establish of a Christian theocracy. The commission to "go and make Christians of all the nations" applies to the people in those nations, and if you've read enough of what Jesus said, it's quite evident that his recommended of "making Christians" of people had much more to do with living by example than it did any type of coercion.


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