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Old 07-17-2006, 09:06 PM   #46
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Originally posted by melon


Have you seen the kind of "technology" that Hamas uses to send rockets? They're pretty much high-powered fireworks without pretty colors. They are in really sad shape, which is why they're virtually powerless when Israel finally gets fed up with them.

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based on recent news accounts, i would beg to differ

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Old 07-17-2006, 09:12 PM   #47
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based on recent news accounts, i would beg to differ
I would beg to guess that you're referring to Hezbollah. Still, I can also guess that you can tell the difference between Hezbollah's military power, which is enough to terrify and destroy a few buildings in northern Israel, and Israel's military power, which has been enough to rip Lebanon into shreds in a matter of days.

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Old 07-17-2006, 09:15 PM   #48
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Diamond, seeing as the world's about to end I will offer you a very generous $50 for your entire car lot.
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:29 AM   #49
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Originally posted by financeguy
Diamond, seeing as the world's about to end I will offer you a very generous $50 for your entire car lot.
I don't sell cars anymore.

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Old 07-18-2006, 01:44 AM   #50
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If anything, the current conflicts are more like a second Cold War. Violent conflicts limited to certain parts of the world (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan then and Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Israel/Lebanon thing now). A lot of saber rattling (think Cuban missile crisis then, Iran and N. Korea now).

I don't think we'll have another true World War in the forseeable future because nuclear weapons pretty much mean mutually assured distruction and nobody wants that.

Both World Wars were characterized by armed conflicts between nation-states where war had been officially declared by those nation-states, and other nation states lined up on one side or the other of the conflict. That's not really what we have going on here.

The term World War III is just being used to get everyone all revved up. I like that term, crisis porn.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:03 AM   #51
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Crisis porn is an awesome term. I'm patenting it.

Thing is, World War II in particular was the end result of world war I, and World War I was the moment when the oldstyle European Empires lost the motherfucking plot. I'd argue we're in a new sort of imperialism now, but it does not have to mean a global war is the result.

Still, I do wish the people who wrote the news would learn their history, because everything, absolutely everything, is connected.
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:03 PM   #52
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Regardless.

Times have changed, and we are entering into a 3rd world war, whether we want to admit or not.

Those who choose to live in denial, may do so, however it won't change the fact we are indeed entering into a long long struggle.

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Old 07-18-2006, 02:34 PM   #53
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:14 PM   #54
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http://www.humaneventsonline.com/win...e.php?id=16065




A Third World War
by Newt Gingrich
Posted Jul 17, 2006

Like you, I spent the past week viewing the events in the Middle East with growing concern. In the 13 weeks that I have been bringing you my thoughts in Winning the Future, I have shared with you directly many challenges facing us. But no challenge confronting America is greater than the one I am writing about today. And no challenge requires us to be more candid and more direct about what victory will require.



As I talked about yesterday on NBC's "Meet the Press," I am now firmly convinced that the world confronts a situation that is frighteningly similar to a Third World War, one every bit as serious and dangerous as the two great conflicts of the 20th Century.

The recent attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah against Israel -- with the active political, financial and military support of Iran and Syria -- are just the latest acts in this war. It is a war that pits civilization and the rule of law against the dictatorships of Iran and Syria and the terrorist groups of Hezbollah and Hamas that they support. It is also a war that pits civilized nations against Islamic terrorist groups around the world, including, most significantly (but not exclusively), the al Qaeda network.

In the United States, we refer to this struggle as the "Global War on Terror". Yet, I believe this label fails to capture the nature and scale of the threat faced by civilization.

The nature of the threat -- with Iran at the epicenter -- is at its core ideological. The threat to the United States is an ideological wing of Islam that is irreconcilable to modern civilization as we know it throughout most of the world. The United States and her allies face a long war with this irreconcilable wing of Islam.

While I have addressed the nature of this threat before, I believe the deadly attacks that have recently been carried out across the globe and the plots of mass murder that have been uncovered recently in our own country and abroad reflect a scale of challenge much larger than we currently recognize. So much so that I think an analogy to the two world wars of the last century more accurately explains where we find ourselves today.

The Iran-Syrian-Hezbollah-Hamas Terrorist Alliance

It is necessary to connect the dots to understand the scale of the challenge we face. These are not isolated events: Whether operationally connected or not, these attackers and plotters are connected in their ultimate aim to destroy the values of freedom, security and religious liberty that sustain civilization in the modern age.

Here's a list of the attacks, provocative acts and uncovered plots that have occurred in just the past seven weeks:

An Iran-Syrian-Hezbollah-Hamas terrorist alliance is waging war against Israel in both southern Lebanon and Gaza. Hezbollah has launched more than 1,000 rockets into northern Israel in the past few days alone.


Seven bombings in Mumbai, India, killed more than 200 people.


North Korea, which is in public contact with Iran, launched seven missiles, including an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of hitting the West coast of the continental United States, in deliberate contempt of repeated warnings from the American and Japanese governments and the United Nations Security Council.


Seven Americans were seen on video tape in Miami pledging allegiance to al Qaeda.


A plot to bomb New York City subways and tunnels was discovered.


Eighteen Canadians, plotting terror, were arrested with twice the explosive force used in the Oklahoma City bombing and a plan to blow up the Canadian parliament.


The British government reported that it has uncovered more than 20 "major conspiracies" by Islamic terrorists, and as many as 1,200 potential terrorists now live in the United Kingdom.

This is only a recent list. It is in addition to the deadly bombings we witness on an almost daily basis in Baghdad, and previous attacks in New York, Washington, London, Madrid, Bali, Beslan, Jerusalem, Istanbul, Sharm-el-Sheikh, New Delhi, Amman and many other cities.

Are We For Civilization or Appeasement?

Some actions are clarifying because they force people -- and nations -- to choose sides. The increasing number of attacks, provocations, and plots of this Third World War similarly force us to make a decision. We must have a national debate -- indeed, a worldwide debate -- between those of us who believe we're in a war to defend civilization (and therefore must defeat terrorists and their state sponsors) and those who are made uncomfortable by the price of defeating terrorists and their state sponsors.

This is a fundamental choice upon which will hinge our future liberties and possibly our very lives. New York Daily News columnist Michael Goodwin described the war like this:

"While it is often a war of loose or no affiliation, and sometimes just amateur copycats, the similar goals of destruction add up to a threat against modern society. ... Islamic fascists are the driving force, but anti-American hatred is a global membership card for any and all who have a grievance and a gun."

So which are we for? Defending civilization and America? Or making excuses for those who threaten us and burying our heads in the sand?

What Can We Do?

I think the answer is clear. The duty of civilized, law-abiding nations is to win this war. Anything less than victory sends the message that our terrorist enemies and their state sponsors have the time to develop the strength to do us incalculable harm. Anything less than victory threatens the very survival of the rule of law and freedom as we have known it.

Winning four arguments are essential to winning this Third World War. I urge each of you to take the time to make these points to your friends and neighbors who may not yet recognize the nature and scale of this war, or who are tempted by the dangerous allure of appeasement.

It's Us Versus Them: The American people and free people everywhere must come to recognize that we are in a world war that pits civilization against terrorists and their state sponsors who wish to impose a new dark age -- with them in charge. Everything our leaders do must be judged by whether it helps or hurts us in defeating terrorists and their state sponsors.


Connect the Dots, Then Connect Them Again: We must consistently emphasize that the deadly attacks and threats of destruction we see worldwide are connected.

The bombings in India relate to attacks on Israel. Iran's erecting a statue of the favorite hero (Simon Bolivar) of Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez -- in a gesture of alliance -- is linked to the Chavez-Castro efforts to weaken America. Suicide bombings in Iraq are linked to efforts to kill thousands of innocent civilians in Canada and New York City.

And on and on it goes.


Stand and Deliver: We must take every possible opportunity to engage in arguments and efforts that educate people about the nature of the war and the enormous challenge it will be to defeat terrorists and their state sponsors who are committed to our destruction.


Be Honest About the Challenges Ahead: Many things in this Third World War will be very hard. When there have been more than 800 suicide bombers in Iraq alone and several thousand over the last decade worldwide, there is a serious crisis of civilization. We must convince the American people and our allies across the world that fighting this fight is hard but necessary and unavoidable. Losing to the murderous terrorists and their state sponsors who threaten us would be far harder.
In his magnificent book about Abraham Lincoln, The Eloquent President, Ronald White writes that Lincoln proved that "words are actions" -- that people cannot be led until they are first persuaded. Lincoln is an example for our leaders, and for all of us who care about the survival of American civilization. Like him, we must be clear in our thoughts, candid in our words, and rock solid in our resolve. It is up to us first to prove that in this Third World War "words are actions." And then it is up to us to win.



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Old 07-18-2006, 03:41 PM   #55
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It sounds like he actually wants a Third World War. I'm very skeptical (and weary) of anyone who tries to link various conflicts into an 'Us and Them' philosophy in a heightened state of fear. He probably also believes his views are somehow mandated by God.

In the Middle East, you can destroy Lebanon, but that doesn't mean the end of Hezbollah. Israel knows this all too well...it happened with the PLO. The saddest thing here is that this kind of violence has happened before, but the parties involved have never really learned to heal their wounds and come together in a purposeful way outside of temporary agreements and ceasefires.

It's time the United Nations step-up and be counted. If the world truly is a family, we need the ability to enforce discussion between parties, rather than jump to further rampage.
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Old 07-18-2006, 05:55 PM   #56
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His views are mandated by God? We shouldn't take any of it with any degree of seriousness. You go ahead and be weary of him.

From “A Treatise on the Legal Status of Using Weapons of Mass Destruction Against Infidels” ( a religious fatwa that Osama bin Laden secured from Shaykh Nasir bin Hamd al-Fahd a young and prominent Saudi cleric justifying the use of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) against Americans:

Anyone who considers America’s aggressions against Muslims and their lands during the past decades will conclude that striking her is permissible on the basis of the rule of treating one as one has been treated. No other argument need be mentioned. Some brothers have totaled the number of Muslims killed directly or indirectly by their weapons and come up with a figure of nearly ten million....If a bomb that killed ten million of them and burned as much of their land as they have burned Muslim land was dropped on them, it would be permissible, with no need to mention any other argument. We might need other arguments if we wanted to annihilate more than this number of them.

You live in New York City and I live in Los Angeles.

From Ayman Al-Zawahir: “We have not reached parity with them. We have the right to kill four million Americans—two million of them children—and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands. Furthermore, it is our right to fight them with chemical and biological weapons, so as to afflict them with the fatal maladies that have afflicted the Muslims because of the [Americans’] chemical and biological weapons.”

In the 9/11 Commission Report, the commissioners concluded: “Bin Laden and Islamist terrorists mean exactly what they say: To them America is the font of all evil, the “head of the snake, and it must be converted or destroyed.”
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:19 PM   #57
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Crisis porn is the perfect term. It would pay to notice that the only people desperate to hype this as WWIII are those who would benefit from crisis hype. That'd be hysterical cable news presenters, tabloid columnists and those spoiling for a fight. The only qualified people I've heard even dare mention it as WWIII are Newt Gingrich and the Iranian President, ie two crazy ass extremists. You would notice that absolutely everyone who has any degree of influence or decent understanding of the situation - and who doesn't rely on panic for ratings or sales or fanatical support - is quite calm and measured about it. You are being suckered in. This is another chapter in a 60 year fight. There is no reason why it is any different to any previous flare up, and no reason why, like the other flare ups, it won't be yesterdays news in a month. Of course it has every chance to flare up into something much larger and wider, but it always has and always will. The crazy people who want it to flare up are making you think it is destined to.
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:38 PM   #58
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Sure...the fanatics are only joking...they have no ill will. They want to kill 10 million Americans. Ha, ha, ha.

New York, Washington, London, Madrid, Bali, Beslan, Jerusalem, Istanbul, Sharm-el-Sheikh, New Delhi, Amman.

The difference now?

Fanatics. This wing of Islam.

Advancements in technology + communications.

Biological

Chemical

Nuclear

Electromagnetic pulse (EMP)

Time = Compactness and Portablity
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:45 PM   #59
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Quote:
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love that photo of him holding the baby, too. that one you put up was priceless!
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:48 PM   #60
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And yet they're still lobbing missiles like unwieldy fireworks, and nations like Syria and Iran are forced to resort to backing terrorist organizations to combat Israel, because their militaries are still no match after all these decades.

They have done a great job convincing people of how powerful they are through propaganda. For every "success" they have had, they have had numerous failures. And while none of this is an excuse to let these fanatics go free, it is enough to explain why calling this "WWIII" is nothing short of hysteria at this point.

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