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Old 04-11-2006, 11:34 PM   #46
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Unfortunately there is still a segment of our society that doesn't want our women to be too ambitious. And even more sadly, that segment is made up of both men and women - the hostility that ultra-successful women experience in the workplace and in social situations from other women can be truly astounding, and I've never really understood it.

Think about it - there are obviously benefits to this stupid, idiotic, vapid behaviour. If there weren't any, there wouldn't be such a propagation of the Hiltons.
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Old 04-11-2006, 11:43 PM   #47
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Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways
While I see the effects of the so called "stupid girl" culture every day at school I can't help but wonder what kind of message these girls are getting at home. Maybe it's time to stop blaming pop culture and focus on what's going on at home.
That's a good point. A girl whose parents encourage her to do well in school and be ambitious and independent is probably lot less likely to fall for this crap.
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Unfortunately there is still a segment of our society that doesn't want our women to be too ambitious. And even more sadly, that segment is made up of both men and women - the hostility that ultra-successful women experience in the workplace and in social situations from other women can be truly astounding, and I've never really understood it.
Intelligence and ambition are far more acceptable now than ever...just don't be sexy too...very powerful combo. It's the combination that brings out the most competitive hostility from both men and women.
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Old 04-12-2006, 11:02 AM   #49
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Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways
While I see the effects of the so called "stupid girl" culture every day at school I can't help but wonder what kind of message these girls are getting at home. Maybe it's time to stop blaming pop culture and focus on what's going on at home.
When you see five-year-old girls wearing T-shirts that say "Porn Star" and jeans with "Sexy" or "Juicy" written across the backside, you can't entirely blame the TV.

I'm glad to see celebrities like Pink and J. K. Rowling taking up the "smart girls" cause. Our daughters need to know that you don't have to be a Barbie doll. So what if the idiot boys in High School don't like brainy girls? To hell with those fools. There will always be decent, smart, sensible men who will want decent, smart, sensible women. I know; I married one!
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Old 04-12-2006, 11:37 AM   #50
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Originally posted by Sue DeNym

When you see five-year-old girls wearing T-shirts that say "Porn Star" and jeans with "Sexy" or "Juicy" written across the backside, you can't entirely blame the TV.
Of course you're right, I agree 100 %. When I see clothes like that on little kids (and I have) I definitely wonder wtf is wrong w/ the parents.

Whatever anyone thinks of Pink I think this is an important subject worth talking about. And it doesn't negate all the great parents out there and the girls who don't lose themselves in all of the cultural pressure. It was tough enough when I was that age, I can't imagine what it's like now. I don't want to attack the girls, I sympathize and know what it's like. Even as a woman I know.
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Old 04-12-2006, 10:56 PM   #51
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I'm stuck with this thread. I'm not sure if I'm not fully understanding the 'stupid girl' phenomenon, or if I think that some of this is simply misplaced. Firstly it is best to ask what is the stupid girl phenomenon? The above about the little girls wearing these dreadful slogans is not the same, I'd hope. That is simply dreadful regardless and based on it being entirely inappropriate for a little girl to wear saucy slogans or adult themes. Moving up to teens and even pre-teens who (here) have taken to wearing horridly short shorts, large belts, layered singlets etc, it is a hideous fashion trend (which I absolutely hate) but it in no way reflects the girl - unless you let it. And by letting it, it's seemingly becoming anti-feminism. The feminists themselves say this is dangerous because it dumbs down teens. It feeds the pop culture mob mentality, it devoids girls of individuality and ambition and all these other things. However, if you look at them and choose not to think that then it is powerless and remains nothing more than shocking dress sense. In pop culture, how are these singers any different? Britney Spears, for example, seems rather dumb. But that is because there is a 2 dimensional portrayal of her based on supply and demand of looks and sex selling. She might be a bad example as she might very well be rather 'dumb'. But firstly who knows that for sure when we can only go by the media, and secondly, define 'dumb'? She's made shitloads more money than any mensa member will ever make (most likely) and is seemingly doing somehting she enjoys. Just how stupid is she? We might find it stupid because we think there are better pursuits and ways to go as far as you can, but it was her choice. Not mine, or anyone else's.

In the end, I reckon society at large is still not willing to let women and girls just be whatever they want. Society still judges and makes assumptions. We still want to assign a role to women, be it housewife, multi doctrate graduate, sex symbol, whatever. There's always some segment of society who complains and dislikes one or more of these.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:35 AM   #52
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Firstly it is best to ask what is the stupid girl phenomenon? The above about the little girls wearing these dreadful slogans is not the same, I'd hope. That is simply dreadful regardless and based on it being entirely inappropriate for a little girl to wear saucy slogans or adult themes. Moving up to teens and even pre-teens who (here) have taken to wearing horridly short shorts, large belts, layered singlets etc, it is a hideous fashion trend (which I absolutely hate) but it in no way reflects the girl - unless you let it.
The reason I brought it up is because it's parents who buy their children's clothes. And if they disrespect their daughters enough to buy them clothes that proclaim them as "Porn Star" or "Sexy" when they're barely out of diapers, what does that teach the girl? That her sexuality is the only part of her that matters -- not her brain, feelings, talents or personality.

That little girl whose stupid parents dressed her in the "Porn Star" shirt could have been the next Marie Curie or Golda Meir, had her parents the sense to let her be what she was and not tried to force her into some artificial mold. While there are some cases where a child has gone wrong no matter how much love and energy her parents gave to her, the fact of the matter is it all starts at home.

Parents need to teach their daughters that they are human beings, with worth and value, and to nurture their minds and abilities to be the best person they can be. If the parents don't do that, the daughter could easily be swept away into the shallow, plastic culture that tells them they're worthless unless they're beautiful, vapid and sleep around.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:46 AM   #53
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Parents can do all they possibly are able to do, but I belive that it is PEER PRESSURE that is so strong these days, that is's evilness sucks kids into doing things they otherwise would not have which includes dressing provacatively and dumbing themselves down. It really is sad. I've even often said I feel peer pressure is sometimes worse than drugs and drinking for teens.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:54 AM   #54
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I am not discounting peer pressure. It can be horrific. But it all starts at home. If mom and dad don't care about their daughter, she won't care about herself and will be buffetted by every trend that comes along. If mom and dad raise their daughter in a positive, loving environment and teach her that she is a valued, intelligent, lovable human being, she should be better able to withstand peer pressure.
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Old 04-13-2006, 08:40 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sue DeNym


The reason I brought it up is because it's parents who buy their children's clothes. And if they disrespect their daughters enough to buy them clothes that proclaim them as "Porn Star" or "Sexy" when they're barely out of diapers, what does that teach the girl? That her sexuality is the only part of her that matters -- not her brain, feelings, talents or personality.

That little girl whose stupid parents dressed her in the "Porn Star" shirt could have been the next Marie Curie or Golda Meir, had her parents the sense to let her be what she was and not tried to force her into some artificial mold. While there are some cases where a child has gone wrong no matter how much love and energy her parents gave to her, the fact of the matter is it all starts at home.

Parents need to teach their daughters that they are human beings, with worth and value, and to nurture their minds and abilities to be the best person they can be. If the parents don't do that, the daughter could easily be swept away into the shallow, plastic culture that tells them they're worthless unless they're beautiful, vapid and sleep around.
I agree. Of course Angela I would never say that the clothes refect the girl, that a girl wearing that is a slut or anything like that and I agree w/ your point about that being anti-feminist. But I agree w/ what Sue said-after all, do you ever see young boys wearing clothes like that? I just think it's conveying the wrong idea. The shallow plastic culture in which girls are being stupid by losing themselves in order to fit a certain image and mold. These girls who are famous and not famous are not stupid, but they are being stupid by playing stupid in order to be popular, successful, etc. Of course one could say it's smart to do it like Jessica Simpson does (smart in terms of making her a ton of money), but at what price does she do that and do all girls ultimately possibly pay as a result?

It's tough to put into words but I think the articles from oprah.com say it better than I ever could.
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:06 AM   #56
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^^ Mrs S, boys wear t-shirts that say "Kill" or "Slacker" etc instead (I once dated a guy like that *cough*) so... Nah, I'd actually ignore the young's choice of attire. It's more likely a phase. Thinking in terms of bad and good clothing (I know that's not what you said) reminds me of the convoluted thinking of religious fundies I've had to deal with, ha ha ha ...

Does this 'stupid girl phenomenon' stem from women saying to each other about men "Let them think they're smarter; we know better and can manipulate them with our wiles"? Maybe, I wonder.

Smart young women role models:

Keira Knightley, Scarlett Johansson (so why did they have to model nude?), "Hermione", Natalie Portman, Kirsten Dunst...

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Old 04-13-2006, 10:09 AM   #57
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p/s. I'm 100% behind the point somebody made about self-image starting at home. The biggest feminist statement my mother ever made was raising three independent daughters.

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Old 04-13-2006, 10:36 AM   #58
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Well I don't consider myself a "fundie" at all, the clothing is just one small part of the larger issue. I'm much more concerned w/ how all of this affects girls' self-esteem and place in the world. Of course it starts at home, if only all girls could have what they need at home. I don't think I ever really did, but at least I was never told to be stupid-even though my relative, reasonably OK intelligence wasn't exactly applauded-well not to my satisfaction I suppose.

And Natalie Portman was one they mentioned, along w/ Reese Witherspoon and Angelina

As to the manipulation well I like to think we can manipulate much better w/ our intelligence than w/ our wiles or playing games, sexual or stupid or otherwise.

Like I asked, is it much ado about a fad? I just can't remember any time in my life in which being a "stupid girl" was so valued by our culture. It never even entered my mind as a kid or teenager. And honestly I know some adult women who do it now.
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Old 04-13-2006, 02:53 PM   #59
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Whata bout the intellectuals? Like Natalie Portman and Julia Stiles? They are banking but also promoting education at Ivy League Schools.
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:08 AM   #60
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I admire Pink, she comes across as a strong, independent person, much in the mode of Madonna. She has the ability to use something to her advantage. I don't see her running around in a sackcloth, so I kind of feel that her attitude towards other "starlets" is a bit hypocritical. Though, it is good that people think about the types of role models there are available to young women (and perhaps even more importantly to young men).

Media/marketing/PR whatever you want to call it, has massive clout in the perceptions of young women, especially those in the 12-25 age bracket (which may seem a rather huge age group but this group seems to be targetted for a number of reasons - ie, future spenders, chance to get someone to like a brand and become attached to it for a long time, etc) Unfortunately, sex and being good looking sells. If miss chess player wasn't good looking would anyone be interested in her, think of the tennis stars who get in the newspapers, that young golfer isn't exactly hard on the eye. It is important to note that these people are not stupid. They are manipulating the current whims of society to get what they want. Good golfer, want to play in the men's tournaments and earn the bigger dollars (another area that needs to be looked at) and happen to be good looking, well come on, what are you going to do?

I think it is important for parents to teach their children that they can do anything they want if they have the ambition and the perserverence, no matter what gender the child happens to be.

After discussions with my daughter about this song, the message for us was that there are many ways to get to where you want to go and while you may have a fantastic figure or a gorgeous face, it ain't gonna last forever and do you really want to have to wonder that you got to where you wanted to be based solely on looks.

Having said that, this is the society that we live in. There is no getting away from the fact that being good looking in any area will get you further, or at least open a few doors that might otherwise be closed.

On the clothes discussion, up to a certain age, yes clothes are primarily determined by parents. I have a real issue with a lot of the choices that are available. I don't want my youngest daughter looking like an adult or a teenager (or a fairy but hey she likes it so we won't go there ).

Teenager's have a pack mentality. Noone really wants to stand out from the crowd or be picked on, hence the need for all to look the same (how many of us shortened our school uniforms or wore skirts too tight or short much to the horror of our parents, how many of us wear the corporate uniform to fit in with those that we work with, look around the next time you go out - how many of us are wearing the same outfit). Many teens are just trying to find their niche.

I think that we have to be careful how this message comes across, what you wear does not directly relate to who you are and while some people might see the Britney's and Jessica Simpson's of this world as being stupid, why not look at the positives (would you be brave enough to skip around washing a car in a bikini that small or that "pink" - isn't it ironic?, how much time and effort goes into looking like that, and whould you really want to do that?)

I think also, that in these situations, you would hope that it is the woman that is determining their own success. Though, I am sure that a lot of people are employed to bring the "Britney" product to our screens.

I am more concerned with those images which appear in predominantly male music videos portraying women as objects rather than human beings. Perhaps it is this area that needs some work.

Finally, it is interesting to note how nasty we can be to our own sex. Take a look at some of the comments posted here in the thread regarding Adam and his fiance. How many of us picked holes in her clothes and yet here we are saying that what you look like shouldn't make a difference?
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