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Old 02-13-2006, 10:54 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


...that buys Edun clothes?
LOL!
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I think it's rather of outrageous for you to question a person's faith based on the fact they may have a slightly different view of the effectiveness of fair trade than you.

Excellent response...
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:55 AM   #33
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Why should the prices be raised? Just for the reason that the choc producers don´t lose their profits? gimme a break. The producers have to admit they promoted child labour, pay fair prices to the farmers (raise them), and barter with transport (reduce them) and, most important, with food chains.

In Europe the prices have risen tremendously with the Euro. Four years ago the typical candy bars were sold for 14.90 (schillings, our national currency before of the Euro - would be about $ 1.20), now they cost € 1.89 (probably about $ 2.20, and about 26 freaking schillings).

Inflation rate for this particular product was 90% in 4 years.

Who pocketed the 90% - the cocoa farmers?
Given the number of hands involved, from the farmer, to the broker, to the shipper, to the distributor, to the manufacturer, to the retail sales distribution chain - all have their hand in the mix and all may have a reason for increasing their costs (such as government mandated benefits).

As with anything, if one wants more money to go to a select group of people, one must be willing to pay the additional cost.
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:09 AM   #34
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I don't eat a lot of chocolate myself - I do enjoy the occasional Godiva or Cadbury - but I'm not going to stop eating it just because of this post
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:38 AM   #35
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
It seems their current situation is also, at best, unfair.

It's not a matter of feeling better, it's a matter of building infrastructures to allow those communities to do profitable business without slavery.
That's the problem all around, isn't it? Name me one product on the market today that isn't produced by slavery / sweatshop labor / pennies for wages.

I hate the system too, but it's cheap and the only way working schnooks like me can afford stuff. I can't afford Edun clothes, no matter how much I agree with their ethics. I know where they sell ethically-manufactured chocolate near here, but $4.99 for a 1 oz candy bar is a tad steep.

The problem is so widespread and across the board, boycotting individual companies or products won't put a dent in it. It needs a world-wide overhaul, overseen by honest, decent people who will not be bribed or bullied into letting things slide. And good luck finding them.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:34 PM   #36
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Doug, I think you raise a concern that is not likely to happen. Your arguement seems based on an assumption, but recent history suggest, at the least, that consumption won't inevitably go down when prices go up. People typically make that arguement about gas, for example, and it didn't happen when Starbucks raised coffee prices, either. What you suggest is possible, theoertically, but I don't think likely. Prices would have to go pretty high.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:50 PM   #37
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Yeah, if people want to eat chocolate, they'll pay the extra price for it.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Doug, I think you raise a concern that is not likely to happen. Your arguement seems based on an assumption, but recent history suggest, at the least, that consumption won't inevitably go down when prices go up. People typically make that arguement about gas, for example, and it didn't happen when Starbucks raised coffee prices, either. What you suggest is possible, theoertically, but I don't think likely. Prices would have to go pretty high.
You are arguing against basic economics. As prices increase, some individuals will be priced out of the market or will reduce their consumption because of the higher prices.

We would need to examine what price increase would be necessary to satisfy a "fair trade" requirement.



Gasoline consumption does go down when there is a price spike, but to a smaller extent. Gas is considered a necessity, while chocolate is a luxury (though some may argue it is a necessity ).

I doubt many buy Starbucks coffee for the Fair Trade component, though it is a valid motivation.
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

I doubt many buy Starbucks coffee for the Fair Trade component, though it is a valid motivation.


actually, that's the only thing i buy from FourBucks ... i mean starbucks.

i brew a better cup on my own, anyway.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:50 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Irvine511
actually, that's the only thing i buy from FourBucks ... i mean starbucks.

i brew a better cup on my own, anyway.
But do you purchase fair trade coffee?
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:53 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


But do you purchase fair trade coffee?


yes.

and brew my own cup at home.



for Valentine's Day, by BF and i are getting takeout from Popeyes and watching the Olympics.
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:00 PM   #42
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Popeyes
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:15 PM   #43
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No, NBC, I am not arguing against basic econ at all. I am arguing from Econ 101. The market will bear price X. You feel that we've reached price X, apparently. I do not, for the following reasons.

Yes, SOME people will be priced out of the market, but especially in the wealthy industrialized nations, there will still be plenty of people who are not priced out of it. I provided historical examples--do you have a rationale for why those examples aren't valid, especially the higher Sbux prices which were supposed to be more than the market could bear? Can you explain concretely why you feel that ENOUGH people will be priced out of the market to result in a shock to the chocolate market? Without those elements, your arguement is weak.
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:35 PM   #44
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The basic premise is that we need to increase prices for chocolate to achieve fair trade. Econ 101 tells you that as prices increase, demand will fall. The elasticity of the price/demand curve has not been quantified. And we are talking about points on a curve - not a level that must be achieved before a shock occurs to a market.

You acknowledge that some will be priced out of the market. Once this happens, demand falls and the amount of cocoa purchase will drop. Unless all farmers reduce output in equal amounts (highly unlikely), some will be forced out of business. What evidence do you have that all cocoa farmers can stay in business if there is a measurable increase in chocolate prices? My original question went to this very point - in the pursuit of "fair trade" how many farmers are you willing to put out of business to achieve the overall economic goal?

Your historical examples were gasoline and Starbucks. Gasoline will have a different price elasticity due to its nature as a necessity. Starbucks is more in-line with chocolate. However, has the higher price affected the number of purchasers (all other factors being equal)? We don’t have the data.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:01 PM   #45
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^ and this is why economics is a SOCIAL science.

weather forecasters are about as accurate as economists.
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