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Old 06-11-2006, 12:54 AM   #31
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From a logical standpoint I have no problem with such a relationship however sick it may feel, they are not by definition harming anyone and they are each consenting to it and there is no risk of damage to offspring, from the no-harm principle I can't think of a strong reason to prevent such unions. You are trying to make a case against gay marriage by conflating one form of banned or frowned upon relationship (incest) with homosexuality and gay marriage.

Your case seems to rest upon the relationship itself and not it's sanction, it is saying that homosexuality at it's core is wrong and therefore it follows gay marriage should be banned. But what makes homosexuality wrong? it is merely people engaging in sexual activity with other people. Gays pay their taxes same as the rest, why shouldn't the same rights be extended to them as free citizens?

Gays are no threat to domestic peace in and of themselves or their relationships, we have more or less stripped away sodomy laws in the free world, why should relationships that are treated as equally legal be given such division when it comes to marriage.
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Old 06-11-2006, 03:42 AM   #32
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
From a logical standpoint I have no problem with such a relationship however sick it may feel, they are not by definition harming anyone and they are each consenting to it and there is no risk of damage to offspring, from the no-harm principle I can't think of a strong reason to prevent such unions. You are trying to make a case against gay marriage by conflating one form of banned or frowned upon relationship (incest) with homosexuality and gay marriage.

Your case seems to rest upon the relationship itself and not it's sanction, it is saying that homosexuality at it's core is wrong and therefore it follows gay marriage should be banned. But what makes homosexuality wrong? it is merely people engaging in sexual activity with other people. Gays pay their taxes same as the rest, why shouldn't the same rights be extended to them as free citizens?

Gays are no threat to domestic peace in and of themselves or their relationships, we have more or less stripped away sodomy laws in the free world, why should relationships that are treated as equally legal be given such division when it comes to marriage.
I have not stated I'm against Gay Marriage, I'm only trying to resolve certain questions that many people have not discussed on the whole issue of what marriage is and who has the right to enter into marriage. Who does an individual have the right(or no right) to enter into marriage with and why?
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Old 06-11-2006, 04:48 AM   #33
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There is also the option of not having civil "marriages" at all. Any consenting adults can enter into any civil union they choose with binding legal ramifications, each person filing a separate Federal Tax Return if the government will not allow the filing of joint returns on civil unions.

This would allow polygamy. However, in order to not stretch the benefit program of employers that offer "family benefits" and the many that already allow for domestic partners, only one adult partner can be designated for benefits. This allows the freedom of the relationship without the obligation of the employer, etc., to finance all the participants in that relationship. The individual himself/herself has the sole discretion to name the person who will have all the legal rights to make financial decisions, medical decisions, etc. in case of incapacitation or death.

Child support decisions are handled as they are handled now between unmarrieds and marrieds alike. As for what are now marital property/etc. rights, those are handled in contract.

One may consider one's self married or not as it has no legal meaning. If a couple wants a church blessing, it is up to the church.
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Old 06-11-2006, 06:22 AM   #34
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Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht


I have not stated I'm against Gay Marriage, I'm only trying to resolve certain questions that many people have not discussed on the whole issue of what marriage is and who has the right to enter into marriage. Who does an individual have the right(or no right) to enter into marriage with and why?
I would say anyone below the age of consent, anyone who cannot give consent or anyone who does not give consent.

That excludes bestial marriage and marriage to inanimate objects.

Marriage is an economic contract between the two individuals. I would go furthur and say that polygamous marriages should be allowed on the basis that they can be equally as consenting.
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Old 06-11-2006, 04:22 PM   #35
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Why is it that in every single gay marriage thread someone has to bring up incest and polygamy as being a result of legalizing gay marriage and then go on to assure us that they aren't really against gay marriage, they're "just asking?"

What a load of crap disgiused as "thought."

Write the law describing gay marriage just like the law describing straight marriage is written.


There hasn't been any logical reason in this thread or any other to deny homosexuals the right to marry. NOT ONE REASON.
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Old 06-11-2006, 04:34 PM   #36
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Originally posted by martha
There hasn't been any logical reason in this thread or any other to deny homosexuals the right to marry. NOT ONE REASON.
Indeed...which is why all homophobes are morons.

For all those afraid of incest, polygamy, and bestiality, pass a constitutional amendment against those three.

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Old 06-11-2006, 04:41 PM   #37
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Why is it that in every single gay marriage thread someone has to bring up incest and polygamy as being a result of legalizing gay marriage and then go on to assure us that they aren't really against gay marriage, they're "just asking?"

What a load of crap disgiused as "thought."

Write the law describing gay marriage just like the law describing straight marriage is written.


There hasn't been any logical reason in this thread or any other to deny homosexuals the right to marry. NOT ONE REASON.
So how would you explain to an adult Gay Uncle and his adult Gay Nephew that they are not allowed to get married? Wanderer already stated that he could not oppose such a marriage, but if you write the law describing gay marriage just like the law describing straight marriage, such a union would be illegal.

Oh, and whats wrong with people being uncertain about how they stand on certain issues and asking questions?
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Old 06-11-2006, 04:43 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht
So how would you explain to an adult Gay Uncle and his adult Gay Nephew that they are not allowed to get married?
The same way that you explain to an adult hetero Uncle and hetero Niece that they are not allowed to get married.

But who knows. It's probably legal in Kentucky.

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Old 06-11-2006, 04:52 PM   #39
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The same way that you explain to an adult hetero Uncle and hetero Niece that they are not allowed to get married.

But who knows. It's probably legal in Kentucky.

Melon
Well, the main reason that an adult hetero Uncle cannot marry his adult hetero Niece is because of the birth defects any potential offspring would have. In the case of the Adult Gay Uncle and the Adult Gay Nephew, its impossible to have any offspring and the main reason for preventing such a union cannot be used. You can claim its just not good for "domestic peace or tranquility" but those general arguements have been used against any gay marriage as well. So the question is, how do you tell an adult gay Uncle that he can't marry his adult gay nephew when the arguements of "birth defects" and "domestic peace" cannot be used?
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Old 06-11-2006, 05:00 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht
Well, the main reason that an adult hetero Uncle cannot marry his adult hetero Niece is because of the birth defects any potential offspring would have. In the case of the Adult Gay Uncle and the Adult Gay Nephew, its impossible to have any offspring and the main reason for preventing such a union cannot be used. You can claim its just not good for "domestic peace or tranquility" but those general arguements have been used against any gay marriage as well. So the question is, how do you tell an adult gay Uncle that he can't marry his adult gay nephew when the arguements of "birth defects" and "domestic peace" cannot be used?
You explain that heterosexuals are a vindictive and hateful people whose laws are not based on rational or logical thought, but, instead, a perceived idea of "fairness." That is, letting an uncle and nephew marry would have an implied notion that homosexuals are superior to their heterosexual counterparts. Heterosexuals would never allow such a thing, and, as such, they'd rather perpetuate nasty stereotypes that homosexuals are diseased, dangerous to children, and are an all-around threat to society--basically, the same charges levelled against Jews for nearly 2,000 years.

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Old 06-11-2006, 05:09 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht


So how would you explain to an adult Gay Uncle and his adult Gay Nephew that they are not allowed to get married? Wanderer already stated that he could not oppose such a marriage, but if you write the law describing gay marriage just like the law describing straight marriage, such a union would be illegal.

Wow I come back a day later and this ficticious nephew still wants to marry his uncle.

Why is it you don't get it? How do you explain it to heterosexual couples? The fact that you can't treat the two the same speaks volumes.
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Old 06-11-2006, 05:21 PM   #42
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Wow I come back a day later and this ficticious nephew still wants to marry his uncle.

Why is it you don't get it? How do you explain it to heterosexual couples? The fact that you can't treat the two the same speaks volumes.
If you don't like the discussion, why are you participating in it?

You explain it to heterosexual couples by explaining the whole issue of birth defects of potential offspring. But in the case of Gay couples, this is never an issue. So the question remains, how do you explain to an Adult Gay Uncle and his Adult Gay Nephew that they can't get married when arguements about "birth defects" and "domestic peace" cannot be used?
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Old 06-11-2006, 05:32 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht


If you don't like the discussion, why are you participating in it?

You explain it to heterosexual couples by explaining the whole issue of birth defects of potential offspring. But in the case of Gay couples, this is never an issue. So the question remains, how do you explain to an Adult Gay Uncle and his Adult Gay Nephew that they can't get married when arguements about "birth defects" and "domestic peace" cannot be used?
I like the discussion, I just don't appreciate the combining of homosexuality with incest.

The problem with your analogy is that the likelyhood of birth defects between a nephew and aunt are actually pretty low probably the same as non related couples.

But like I stated before what if they go before the state and prove they can't reproduce? This makes your comparison moot. Why can't you figure that out? Your whole line of questioning become moot.
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Old 06-11-2006, 05:52 PM   #44
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Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht
Oh, and whats wrong with people being uncertain about how they stand on certain issues and asking questions?
Nothing's wrong with it. But your questions are ridiculous and have nothing to do with gay marriage. You couch your fear and bigotry in "questions" that have nothing to do with two people wanting that same kind of marriage that I have. Like most bigots, you want to make a link between the behavior you fear and behavior that has nothing to do with the real issue.
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Old 06-11-2006, 05:55 PM   #45
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the question remains, how do you explain to an Adult Gay Uncle and his Adult Gay Nephew that they can't get married when arguements about "birth defects" and "domestic peace" cannot be used?
Here's a better question: How do you explain to two men who have been in a loving relationship that they can't get married because one of them isn't a woman?
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