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Old 06-10-2006, 06:16 PM   #16
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Now don't team up on me with your talking points.

I wouldn't be so quick to analogize the hardships and discriminations experienced by any group in America today with the kidnapping and animalistic transport of blacks from Africa. Who then were stripped of their language, culture and identity and treated to 100+ years of systemic exploitation and economic subjugation.

You can compare the "bigotry" of those who oppose same-sex marriage with the physical and cultural brutality of slavery if you choose, but I wouldn't.
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Old 06-10-2006, 06:27 PM   #17
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You can compare the "bigotry" of those who oppose same-sex marriage with the physical and cultural brutality of slavery if you choose, but I wouldn't.
I wasn't comparing the bigotry of the two. I was showing you where your logic was flawed. You can't use status quo as a means to deny certain groups. That's ridiculous.
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Old 06-10-2006, 06:46 PM   #18
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What the hell does this have to do with anything?
Its just a question related to the general topic, is that allowed?
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Old 06-10-2006, 06:51 PM   #19
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Its just a question related to the general topic, is that allowed?
Well it's an off topic tangent. We try to avoid those. But to answer your question; incest is incest, I'm sure it wouldn't be legal. Incest isn't legal amongst heterosexuals who aren't going to reproduce, so the reproduction factor really doesn't matter.
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Old 06-10-2006, 07:11 PM   #20
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well it's an off topic tangent. We try to avoid those. But to answer your question; incest is incest, I'm sure it wouldn't be legal. Incest isn't legal amongst heterosexuals who aren't going to reproduce, so the reproduction factor really doesn't matter.
I think its understood under the law that there is always a chance that reproduction could occur even if the individuals were not trying to reproduce, which I think is the first reason such a relationship within a family is always considered to be illegal. As repulsive as incest is, some would consider homosexual acts as being just as repulsive. So getting beyond what many people consider to be repulsive, one of the first reasons its against the law to engage in that behavior is the potential reproductive consequences. But in a case where you have two consenting adults who are homosexual and happen to be immediate family members or 1st cousins, there are no reproductive consequences from the behavior. I think if Gay Marriage becomes legal and accepted across the country, this is a question that people will have to deal with. Many of the arguements used to defend Gay Marriage might also be used to defend Gay adult couples who are also close family members.
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Old 06-10-2006, 07:23 PM   #21
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I think its understood under the law that there is always a chance that reproduction could occur even if the individuals were not trying to reproduce, which I think is the first reason such a relationship within a family is always considered to be illegal. As repulsive as incest is, some would consider homosexual acts as being just as repulsive. So getting beyond what many people consider to be repulsive, one of the first reasons its against the law to engage in that behavior is the potential reproductive consequences. But in a case where you have two consenting adults who are homosexual and happen to be immediate family members or 1st cousins, there are no reproductive consequences from the behavior. I think if Gay Marriage becomes legal and accepted across the country, this is a question that people will have to deal with. Many of the arguements used to defend Gay Marriage might also be used to defend Gay adult couples who are also close family members.
It's a weak argument. Incredibly weak. And ever since the beginning of these debates people have tried to use incest as a means to stop gay marriage. But think about this, first of all there's scientific debate about the birth defects in the first place, also if someone wanted to push for incest marriage they could prove they weren't capable of reproduction through surgery, then there is no "always a chance" argument.

So honestly the argument is weak.
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Old 06-10-2006, 07:33 PM   #22
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Originally posted by INDY500
Is the premise, that merely defending the status quo of a tradition that dates back thousands of years makes one a bigot?

Well, it does.
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:16 PM   #23
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I wasn't comparing the bigotry of the two. I was showing you where your logic was flawed. You can't use status quo as a means to deny certain groups. That's ridiculous.
Fair enough, but what of the premise raised on this thread? That opposing same-sex marriage is a form of bigotry.
Is everyone opposed to gay marriage a bigot?
Are there absolutely no valid or sound arguments that can be made in the defense of traditional marriage or are they all rooted in hatred and fear?
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:17 PM   #24
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Polygamy is a form of traditional marriage and usually heterosexual at that, does that fall under the label traditional marriage?
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:18 PM   #25
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Originally posted by INDY500


Are there absolutely no valid or sound arguments that can be made in the defense of traditional marriage or are they all rooted in hatred and fear?
Not one valid or sound argument. Not one.
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:44 PM   #26
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Polygamy is a form of traditional marriage and usually heterosexual at that, does that fall under the label traditional marriage?
Not according to The Defense of Marriage Act as signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1996. It recognizes only the union between one man and one woman. So if you're an American citizen the answer is no.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:01 PM   #27
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Well thats not right, individuals should have the right to enter into a legally binding union regardless of sex or number, if they are all consenting parties who retain their rights - by enforcing a "traditional" marriage same as that defined by one set of religious views it is stepping on the toes of those who's beliefs or ethics don't match, to a degree it is granting recognition for a particular religion based viewpoint.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:38 PM   #28
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's a weak argument. Incredibly weak. And ever since the beginning of these debates people have tried to use incest as a means to stop gay marriage. But think about this, first of all there's scientific debate about the birth defects in the first place, also if someone wanted to push for incest marriage they could prove they weren't capable of reproduction through surgery, then there is no "always a chance" argument.

So honestly the argument is weak.
Well, then in any case where consenting adult family members want to get married and there is no chance for there to be reproduction, either because of surgery or the couple was gay, how would you legally argue against such unions? A Gay person argues they were born this way and this is who they are attracted to and they should be allowed to marry such people. Thats understandable, but then how do you tell a Gay adult Uncle that he can't marry his Gay adult Nephew. Their both adults and this is the way they feel. With birth defects, religion, and ones own repulsiveness to such a union taken out of the picture, how would you argue against such unions?
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:54 PM   #29
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On the basis that they rarely occur and that you are conflating different issues with different logical bounds, homosexuality is not the same as incest - if you want a comparison then childless couples make the most sense, and if you allow gay adoption and access to assisted reproduction then that comparison may not be accurate.
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:33 PM   #30
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On the basis that they rarely occur and that you are conflating different issues with different logical bounds, homosexuality is not the same as incest - if you want a comparison then childless couples make the most sense, and if you allow gay adoption and access to assisted reproduction then that comparison may not be accurate.
So your going to tell a Gay adult Uncle and his Gay adult nephew that they can't get married because it "rarely happens" and "homosexuality is not the same as incest"? I think the best arguement in these cases is the issue of birth defects of potential offspring, but in this situation that is not possible. There is the whole "its illegal because its a threat to "domestic peace", but that is often sited in arguements against homosexual marriage.
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