The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment. - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
View Poll Results: What causes HATE/ANGER for our fellowmen?men?men?
ENVY/JEALOSY 11 45.83%
POVERTY 13 54.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-14-2002, 02:11 AM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
theSoulfulMofo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,490
Local Time: 05:39 PM
Normal

Simply put, I believe the root of hatred is formed by the lies we believe about the OTHER, whomever they might be... The more we believe in LIES the more we'll hate that other person.
__________________

__________________
theSoulfulMofo is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 08:37 AM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Saracene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia, some time after tea
Posts: 6,325
Local Time: 12:39 AM
The constant need of humans to think in "Us vs Them" terms, on small or large scale.
__________________

__________________
Saracene is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 11:31 AM   #18
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:39 PM
Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I think the root cause of hatred and anger is elitism, actually, which is generally fostered in religion. Sure, there is a bunch of window dressing about us all being equal under the eyes of God, but then there are all these ideas of being "the elect" and "chosen people," which are then instruments for one of those who consider themselves "elect" to try and destroy all those whom they consider to be "evil" or "inferior."

Melon
I'm not sure if this statement is based on theological study or personal interaction with people of faith or if you were referring to a particular religion.

Scripture states that the Jews are Godís chosen people. The Elect is another term for Christian. The doctrine of election simply states that God knew who would come to faith in Christ before the creation of the world.

Is there a continuing history of Jews and Christians trying to destroy all those who are not believers? I think not. Quite the opposite Ė Jews have a continuing history of being targets for hatred. Christians also are being imprisoned or killed today as a result of their faith.

I will pray for you brother Melon.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 12:32 PM   #19
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Scripture states that the Jews are Godís chosen people. The Elect is another term for Christian. The doctrine of election simply states that God knew who would come to faith in Christ before the creation of the world.
The Old Testament indeed states that Jews are God's "chosen people," but Jesus came to Earth and wholly rejected that claim. St. Paul makes an equal condemnation of that claim, and his entire Church of Antioch (ideological and chronological predecessor to the entire Christian Church) emphasized on Gentiles--e.g., the excluded. I believe that the entire concept of "chosen people" is an archaic relic of polytheism, as I'm sure the Philistines were the "chosen people" of Baal. Since we don't believe in polytheism, the idea of "chosen people" is ridiculous. Aren't we all equal children of God?

Quote:
Is there a continuing history of Jews and Christians trying to destroy all those who are not believers? I think not. Quite the opposite Ė Jews have a continuing history of being targets for hatred. Christians also are being imprisoned or killed today as a result of their faith.
Read the Bible, for instance. In conquering Canaan in the book of Joshua, God supposedly commands Joshua to evoke "the Ban," which commanded the murder of every last man, woman, and child, along with all property of all sorts. Of course, then there are the evocations of justified rape in Deuteronomy:

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seeth among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and remain in thine house . . . And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her" (Deuteronomy 21:10-14).

But hey...we can tell that there is justice here. I mean, they were allowed to "humble her" and divorce her, but they can't sell her!

But, yes, there is a shift of persecution, and the tone of Judaism changes, *especially* in post-Biblical medieval Jewish scripture. In fact, the Talmuds so rejected most of the bombasticism of the Mosaic Law that they voided it entirely; hence, why reform and conservative Judaism is looked at disdainfully by Orthodox Judaism, which still does believe in the Mosaic Law.

While I have sympathy for post-Biblical Judaism, the same courtesy I do not extend to Christianity. Was there a sense of persecution in the early Church? Yes, indeed; but that ended the minute Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and made it the state religion of the Roman Empire. Christianity switched from being the oppressed to being the oppressor; a machine of imperialism more interested in the control aspects of religion than anything. I mean, how else could imperial Europe keep the entire population enslaved for 1000 years in feudalism? Guilt. Telling everyone that it is God's will that they are serfs, and, equally, that it is God's will that certain people are wealthy and powerful; hence, you would be sinning against God to defy this classification. A complex system of controlling every aspect of living, telling them that pleasure is sinful and misery is godliness. Then there's the Inquisition. Oh my...you should read some of the torture techniques they used. Hanging someone upside down and systematically sawing them in half, starting from the most "sensitive" parts of our bodies. The glory of Christianity!

Of course, the Protestant Reformation comes, and we get new oppression. John Calvin, the ideological founder of most American Protestant sects, rather than set a new example when he conquered Geneva, Switzerland, sets up a counter-Reformation and kills everyone who won't convert to his religion. Rather than reject the modes of control that the Catholic Church constructed to stay in power, they just crank it up a notch to consolidate their own control. How can we culturally forget Jonathan Edwards' famous "fire and brimstone" sermon?

Hell, damnation...does man seemingly do anything right? Oh wait...we supposedly live in an *especially* evil time. At least, that's what the Christians tell me. Even more evil than 1000 years of enslavement; a Church run entirely by the royalty that practiced especially gruesome torture; a religious doctrine that made everyone believe that sex, even in procreation, was a sinful extension of lust; the Bubonic Plague that killed 1/3 of Europe; and smallpox that would kill most of its victims and leave the rest horribly disfigured, if not blind. Heh...whomever said people were ever good at history?

...

Of course, let me allay any confusion: I am a devout Christian, but--maybe I was from another planet in another dimension--all these ideas of guilt, self-loathing, and general complexity was completely foreign to me until I was 18. Creationism and the ideas expoused by the Christian Coalition I believed to be long extinct, killed in the 19th century when man was able to reconcile between God and science. How wrong I found myself to be, and I have a hard time finding Jesus in all this mess. Of course, the response I get from some Christians is "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34). And all I can say to that is that Jesus would never have had to come at all; we've always done a great job of killing ourselves and each other.

Hatred...anger...guilt...power...control...elitism...

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 12:43 PM   #20
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Good pt.
but
arent these 2 nieghbors both "envious" of what they think they are both entitled to?
Let me get more in-depth. This is an ideologically-charged argument. "Envy/jealousy" is what conservative organizations say. "Poverty" is what liberal organizations say. It comes down to a semiotical distinction, though. "Envy/jealousy" is perceived as a vice that people just need to get over, and "poverty" is a social injustice that needs to be solved. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why would most of third-world be "envious"? Because they are mired in poverty. But why is there poverty to begin with? Elitism. Man feels good, knowing that they are better than people. It is this elitism that keeps those who have the resources to enact change from doing nothing effectual at all. It is this elitism that generates all this conflict, because man has an instinctive desire to want its concerns and emotions validated. When this validation does not come--in this case, the third-world wants its concerns validated by the first-world--people will do more desperate and sometimes violent things to try and achieve this validation. But elitism stands in the way and says, "Hey...don't feel guilty about being wealthier than them. You *earned* your wealth." Again, with "earnings" being a pivotal virtue in the Western world.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 01:40 PM   #21
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The Old Testament indeed states that Jews are God's "chosen people," but Jesus came to Earth and wholly rejected that claim. St. Paul makes an equal condemnation of that claim, and his entire Church of Antioch (ideological and chronological predecessor to the entire Christian Church) emphasized on Gentiles--e.g., the excluded. I believe that the entire concept of "chosen people" is an archaic relic of polytheism, as I'm sure the Philistines were the "chosen people" of Baal. Since we don't believe in polytheism, the idea of "chosen people" is ridiculous. Aren't we all equal children of God?
Review Romans 9 through 11, God's plan for His people, the Jews, is intact. Scripture supports Godís selection of His people. Scripture does not support manís selection of Godís people. This is the root of the problem when man tires to decide who is Elect and who is not. From our side of the equation, we need to view all people as made in Godís image.

Are Ephesians 1:4 and Romans 8:29 ridiculous passages?

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Read the Bible, for instance. In conquering Canaan in the book of Joshua, God supposedly commands Joshua to evoke "the Ban," which commanded the murder of every last man, woman, and child, along with all property of all sorts. Of course, then there are the evocations of justified rape in Deuteronomy:

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seeth among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and remain in thine house . . . And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her" (Deuteronomy 21:10-14).

But hey...we can tell that there is justice here. I mean, they were allowed to "humble her" and divorce her, but they can't sell her!
This is one of many examples where God gives a specific command to His people. Please do not confuse this as a license for any believer to eliminate a non-believing rival. Also, I am not in a position to dictate which commands of God are good and which are bad. I think it can be best stated ďGod doesnít do something because it is good, it is good because God does itĒ. I believe it would be foolish to think we are on the same level as God, or that He must live to our standards of right and wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Of course, let me allay any confusion: I am a devout Christian, but--maybe I was from another planet in another dimension--all these ideas of guilt, self-loathing, and general complexity was completely foreign to me until I was 18. Creationism and the ideas expoused by the Christian Coalition I believed to be long extinct, killed in the 19th century when man was able to reconcile between God and science. How wrong I found myself to be, and I have a hard time finding Jesus in all this mess. Of course, the response I get from some Christians is "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34). And all I can say to that is that Jesus would never have had to come at all; we've always done a great job of killing ourselves and each other.

Hatred...anger...guilt...power...control...elitism...

Melon
As a devout Christian, I do not find God's message of salvation to be one of hatred, anger, guilt, power, control or elitism. These are all elements of our sin nature. All I can do is pray that you would find Jesus in all this mess.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 02:50 PM   #22
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
ouizy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: s p o r a t i c
Posts: 3,788
Local Time: 07:39 PM
I am the chosen one.

I choose the choice that is not listed. RELIGION is the root of all evil, war, jealousy, envy, anger, hatred and all other ill feelings towards our fellow man.
__________________
ouizy is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 03:36 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
HeartlandGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 6,829
Local Time: 05:39 PM
Normal

I also choose a cause that is not listed:

IGNORANCE
__________________
HeartlandGirl is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 04:43 PM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Review Romans 9 through 11, God's plan for His people, the Jews, is intact. Scripture supports Godís selection of His people. Scripture does not support manís selection of Godís people. This is the root of the problem when man tires to decide who is Elect and who is not. From our side of the equation, we need to view all people as made in Godís image.

Are Ephesians 1:4 and Romans 8:29 ridiculous passages?
NB, doesn't the scripture you selected, especially Romans 9 support the point that Melon was/is making. That our churches have become elitist in thinking that they hold the truth in their hands, to the exclusion of others? IMHO it emphasizes that being a member of "Israel" is more than being biologically a child of Abraham. Specifically it refers to the Gentiles as being called not just the Jews.

When Christ stood against the Pharisees, in a sense he was attempting to take God out of the Temple and bring God to the people.


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
This is one of many examples where God gives a specific command to His people. Please do not confuse this as a license for any believer to eliminate a non-believing rival. Also, I am not in a position to dictate which commands of God are good and which are bad. I think it can be best stated ďGod doesnít do something because it is good, it is good because God does itĒ. I believe it would be foolish to think we are on the same level as God, or that He must live to our standards of right and wrong.
I would go back to what Melon quoted from Deuteronomy. It was a reference to taking captive women and making them your wife without consent. Are you saying that this was a command of God and that it is good because it was the will of God? Many people throughout history have committed great atrocities because they claim to have been told by God to do something. In this same vein people who believe to know the will of God may have committed the terrorist bombings in Bali. In all probability they may even claim to be "chosen".


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
As a devout Christian, I do not find God's message of salvation to be one of hatred, anger, guilt, power, control or elitism. These are all elements of our sin nature. All I can do is pray that you would find Jesus in all this mess.
That is the point isn't it? God's message of salvation is lost in the elitist nature of man's sinful nature permeating religion. There is a difference between having a religion and hearing the message of God's salvation.

I would offer a different prayer......I pray that we can find God in all of this. It is the one common theme between the Judiasm, Christianity, and the Muslim religion. There is one God.

Peace to all.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 05:20 PM   #25
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,640
Local Time: 06:39 PM
IGONORANCE, ARROGANCE, AND THE LACK OF EMPATHY.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-14-2002, 05:24 PM   #26
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
It is the one common theme between the Judiasm, Christianity, and the Muslim religion. There is one God.

Peace to all.

Sorry if there was some confusion in my post, as I can only speak as a Christian with an understanding of Judaism from the Old Testament.

I believe Melon was referring to the concept of the Elect as a tool to harm others. If I call myself one of the Elect, it is simply a reference to Godís grace. It has nothing to do with my superiority/inferiority to another person.

I highlighted your one statement for an important reason. The God of Judaism and Christianity and that of Islam are not the same. There is a shared history and common terms, but if you look at this from a theological perspective, there are too many core differences to have all three religions claiming the same God.

A lot of the issues raised in these posts point to the claims of man (or churches). But lets look at the claims of Jesus Christ himself. 1. Jesus states that He is God. 2. Jesus states that He is the only way to salvation. We can all be critical and suspicious of the claims of man (or churches) and argue for tolerance and open mindedness, but if we disagree with these two statements, we will have to take these matters up with Jesus.

Peace brothers and sisters.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 05:53 PM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and commen

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I highlighted your one statement for an important reason. The God of Judaism and Christianity and that of Islam are not the same. There is a shared history and common terms, but if you look at this from a theological perspective, there are too many core differences to have all three religions claiming the same God.
WE can agree to disagree with this point. Throughout the Old and New Testament there is a theme that there is but one God. I would appreciate if someone with more of a background in the Muslim faith would speak to their thoughts on this theme, but if I recall in my limited education on the topic, it is also a theme that Mohammad proclaimed as well. Christ through his teachings prayed to the "Father".

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
A lot of the issues raised in these posts point to the claims of man (or churches). But lets look at the claims of Jesus Christ himself. 1. Jesus states that He is God. 2. Jesus states that He is the only way to salvation. We can all be critical and suspicious of the claims of man (or churches) and argue for tolerance and open mindedness, but if we disagree with these two statements, we will have to take these matters up with Jesus.

Peace brothers and sisters.
As a Christian, and a believer in Christ, I can understand your point of view here, and your belief in the two statements you attribute to Jesus.

Be careful however, becasue there are many stones that have not been included in the man-made churches that will be the cornerstones of the Kingdom of God.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 06:26 PM   #28
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and co

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
WE can agree to disagree with this point. Throught the Old and New Testament there is a theme that there is but one God. I would appreciate if someone with more of a background in the Muslim faith would speak to their thoughts on this theme, but if I recall in my limited education on the topic, it is also a theme that Mohammad proclaimed as well. Christ through his teachings prayed to the "Father".
I would also like to see someone with a background in the Muslim faith speak on this issue.

From my own experience, I met a number of Egyptian Muslims during a trip to Cairo, Port Said and Ismailia a few years back. All believed that Jews, Christians and Muslims share the same God. A study of the Bible and the Quaran, however, should yield a different response, especially regarding the diety of Jesus Christ.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 06:42 PM   #29
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote an

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I would also like to see someone with a background in the Muslim faith speak on this issue.

From my own experience, I met a number of Egyptian Muslims during a trip to Cairo, Port Said and Ismailia a few years back. All believed that Jews, Christians and Muslims share the same God. A study of the Bible and the Quaran, however, should yield a different response, especially regarding the diety of Jesus Christ.
I am in no way shape or form saying that the Muslim believes Christ to be God. I think you and I both know the answer to this.

I am saying the theme from the Old Testament and New Testament, as well as the Quaran would be consistent with the theme that there is ONE God. It is the common ground on which the three books can stand.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-14-2002, 07:00 PM   #30
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:39 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vot

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am saying the theme from the Old Testament and New Testament, as well as the Quaran would be consistent with the theme that there is ONE God. It is the common ground on which the three books can stand.
I agree completely that all three are monotheistic.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com