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Old 12-15-2005, 02:52 PM   #46
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I agree that this is not really an either/or proposition in reality, but the proposition was essentially: "voting against big government programs is worse than engaging in individual charity".


no, that was a false choice you set up.

the initial proposition was: "it is incorrect to believe that individual charity is enough to make up for the cutting of funding of government programs."
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Old 12-15-2005, 02:55 PM   #47
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I'm sorry you read so many negative implications into my words instead of asking for clarification.

The offering of hope has nothing to do with the wealth of the giver.

And I still find it better than staying home and paying taxes.

well, the best option would be to pay taxes and then go out and volunteer.

i'm sorry, but re-reading what you originally posted, i don't see what clarification i needed. if you have the time to volunteer in a soup kitchen, it's a fairly logical deduction that you have more time and money than those who would visit a soup kitchen seeking food. what kind of hope are you offering? we're dealing with an entirely economic situation, one is advantaged the other is disadvantaged, and, as your post laid out, for the disadvantaged to see the advantaged as evidence of hope is entirely patronizing.

what clarification would you offer?
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:06 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
no, that was a false choice you set up.

the initial proposition was: "it is incorrect to believe that individual charity is enough to make up for the cutting of funding of government programs."
I simply identified the value judgement you offered when you said "it's essentially one step forward two steps back" when performing charity, then voting for tax cutting politicians.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I simply identified the value judgement you offered when you said "it's essentially one step forward two steps back" when performing charity, then voting for tax cutting politicians.


this statement is correct.

so how did you come up with "voting against big government programs is worse than engaging in individual charity"?

i never set up a better/worse dichotomy, though it would aid your argument to think that people can only do one or the other, and that people who believe that they pay taxes for a reason and that government programs can and do work simply sit around and wait for the government to take care of everything.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:17 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i'm sorry, but re-reading what you originally posted, i don't see what clarification i needed. if you have the time to volunteer in a soup kitchen, it's a fairly logical deduction that you have more time and money than those who would visit a soup kitchen seeking food. what kind of hope are you offering? we're dealing with an entirely economic situation, one is advantaged the other is disadvantaged, and, as your post laid out, for the disadvantaged to see the advantaged as evidence of hope is entirely patronizing.

what clarification would you offer?
I don't mean to be rude, but how much charitable work have you experienced?

First, you originally used the words "rich" and "poor". My experience has been that people from all socio-economic levels perform charitable work. And the needs are not only of those on the lowest level on the economic rung.

Second, the hope offered does not stem from one's income level. It stems from the simple act of showing care - reaching out to another human being. I highly doubt you find that level of care from behind a government counter or in a government form.

Again, I'm surprised by the judgemental nature of the "logical deduction" here.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:19 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
this statement is correct.

so how did you come up with "voting against big government programs is worse than engaging in individual charity"?

i never set up a better/worse dichotomy, though it would aid your argument to think that people can only do one or the other, and that people who believe that they pay taxes for a reason and that government programs can and do work simply sit around and wait for the government to take care of everything.
Charity = forward

Vote for tax cuts (no big government) = back
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
[B]

I don't mean to be rude, but how much charitable work have you experienced?

i did volunteer work throughout high school and had to do 40 hours in order to be confirmed (worked in a nursing home). in college, i tutored in the local high school, and i spent a summer working with high-potential, traditionally under-served junior high school aged kids while living with a family who was on food stamps and received various forms of public assistance. i've done some volunteer work involved with the AIDS Walk, mostly organizing and setting things up.



[q]First, you originally used the words "rich" and "poor". My experience has been that people from all socio-economic levels perform charitable work. And the needs are not only of those on the lowest level on the economic rung.[/q]


while it's true that people from all socio-economic levels perform volunteer work, the recepiants of that charity are usually the poor or the very near poor. there's an inherent class dichotomy set up in all charitable work, it's only the degree of the inequality between giver and receiver that fluctuates.


[q]Second, the hope offered does not stem from one's income level. It stems from the simple act of showing care - reaching out to another human being. I highly doubt you find that level of care from behind a government counter or in a government form.[/q]


i think that's a nice thought. i also don't think people care who gives them their food stamps, it just matters that they get them. i also don't understand how you're using the word "hope" -- perhaps this is the source of misunderstanding. could you please explain?


[q]Again, I'm surprised by the judgemental nature of the "logical deduction" here.[/q]



how is it judgemental to make the deduction that if someone has the time and financial resources to volunteer, then they are most likely more advantaged than that person who is receiving the charity?
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:28 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Charity = forward

Vote for tax cuts (no big government) = back


you're understanding is too linear.

it's the combination of thinking that charitable work is enough while voting for those who vote for tax cuts that is one step forward and two steps back. the charitable impulse is good, but there's been a net loss.

also, voting for tax cuts does not equal a smaller government, as the Bush administration has amply demonstrated.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:35 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
how is it judgemental to make the deduction that if someone has the time and financial resources to volunteer, then they are most likely more advantaged than that person who is receiving the charity?
I am still hung up on the view that someone is advantaged if they can give time. This is amazing to me. The time I give is a sacrafice on my part. I am away from my family. My father gives me crap all the time because I have not finished projects I started years ago on my house. I make choices. My choices are based on the fact that I believe it is important for me to give back to the community to help those in need.

We have members who give the gift of time because that is what they can live. I live in a rural farming community of cranberry growers. We are not a wealthy community. We have members who do not give time. They make donations. Their donations are greatly appreciated but the fact is, the club could not survive without the gift of time.

One member donates $10,000 every year-year and a half. My project has now raised close to $8,000 in two years, but it is my time that I give collecting bottles and cans. 120 Turkeys were furnished to families by the club last month, with 120 more coming. We fund local food banks, and heifer project.

We have given back over 60,000 to the community in the last three years. It takes EVERYONE in the group to make it work.

We buy hearing aids, build handicapped ramps, deliver meals to the elderly, buy glasses for children, diabetes research, eye research....and on and on.

The fact is though....nothing....not a single thing we do is possible without the doers. And they volunteer time, and it is not because we are advantaged. We made CHOICES.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i think that's a nice thought. i also don't think people care who gives them their food stamps, it just matters that they get them. i also don't understand how you're using the word "hope" -- perhaps this is the source of misunderstanding. could you please explain?
Hope comes from the knowledge that someone cares for (loves) them. As a person of faith, it is almost second nature stemming from the knowledge that God loves me (yes, even me).

This goes way beyond food stamps. It could simply be sitting and listening to someone, helping a child with their homework, painting a house, etc.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
how is it judgemental to make the deduction that if someone has the time and financial resources to volunteer, then they are most likely more advantaged than that person who is receiving the charity?
I think the label "patronizing" was used.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:41 PM   #56
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The other reason I love the Lion's is because we are not a religious organization. WE all come from so many backgrounds and traditions.

It is just nice to know that we are in it together.

The pledge we take...

Not above you
Not beneath you
But With you.
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Old 12-15-2005, 05:26 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Hope comes from the knowledge that someone cares for (loves) them. As a person of faith, it is almost second nature stemming from the knowledge that God loves me (yes, even me).

This goes way beyond food stamps. It could simply be sitting and listening to someone, helping a child with their homework, painting a house, etc.




I think the label "patronizing" was used.


your explanation of how you intended to use the word hope helps to clarify why i used the word patronizing -- the way you had originally set up your statement, the volunteers in whatever organization should be symbols of hope, which i took to mean economic hope, that they were some sort of example set out for those less fortunate.

i also think that the patronizing nature of charitable work is simply part of charity -- and simply because you believe your actions to stem from a pure place that doesn't mean that that is how they will be interpreted. do you think that just because you intend to provide someone with hope that they will read your presence in the same way? that they might view it as patronizing, a way of assuaging guilt? would they be totally incorrect? would they be incorrect in assuming that, while your presence is nice, at the end of the day, you're going back to your warm house and though you've made yourself feel better, there's a harsh reality that they have to return to?

you had questioned how much time i've spent doing charitable work.

how much time have you spent in economically depressed areas -- urban, rural, or otherwise -- plagued by generations of poverty?
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Old 12-15-2005, 05:29 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I am still hung up on the view that someone is advantaged if they can give time. This is amazing to me. The time I give is a sacrafice on my part. I am away from my family. My father gives me crap all the time because I have not finished projects I started years ago on my house. I make choices. My choices are based on the fact that I believe it is important for me to give back to the community to help those in need.


Dread, i think all the work you do is very admirable, and i wish i had the same drive that you do. i do some work, go to fundraisers, but i can't say that i do nearly as much as you do.

but the point i am trying to make is that you are able to do these things both because you care and have made it a priority, but you're also not pushing a shopping cart up North Capitol Ave and talking to walls or sleeping on an air vent on K Street once all the lobbyists have gone home.
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:10 AM   #59
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coemgen -- EXACTLY! It's the same with same-sex marriage. How many times is same-sex marriage mentioned in the Bible? Sort of one. How many times is helping lepers mentioned in the Bible? Alot! Today's lepers just come with a different label -- AIDS -- and yet we don't want to help them. What about helping the poor? Alot! And yet we don't want to help them.

This is my feeling too. Focus on the Family declared there three priorities were abortion, same-sex marriage, and getting justices on courts who support Focus on the Family's agenda.
I took a look through my Bible. As it turns out abortion is never directly mentioned (however, some do argue about the Commandment not to murder, let's debate that some other time), same-sex marriage is never mentioned, but getting justices who support Dobson's political and social agenda into courts was mentioned several times actually. Amazing.
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Old 12-16-2005, 05:52 AM   #60
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What President has done the most to help the AIDS crisis?
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