"The real reasons America is invading Iraq" & What are the real motives for the war? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

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Old 03-25-2003, 05:53 PM   #46
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


But if one of the forseable consequences of their actions is invasion by the US then don't you think that can affect their decision making? Don't you think that if leaders have seen what devastation the war on Iraq is causing, they'll be less likely to engage in actions which could lead to the US doing the same to them?
I think cloudimani was probably thinking about something like China suddenly invading Taiwan or North Korea suddenly invading South Korea. If China or North Korea did so, I don't think that "the US is doing it, so why can't we" would enter into their thinking much, if at all. They'll do it if they think they're getting something out of it that outweighs the risks.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:00 PM   #47
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Originally posted by sharky
hmm interesting Basstrap.

As for earlier, 46% of Americans think that most of the hijackers were Iraqi. Only 10% know where Afghanistan is on a map of the world. If you want, I can find the stories that state this. This is real.

I'm saying Americans are just out and out dumb. But how many Americans read a newspaper? Watch nightly news? How many of them have make decisions about this war based on actual FACTS and educated themselves?

a little over 50% of Americans who can vote actually voted in the 2000 presidential election. What does that tell you about the other 50%? They're protesting the choices or they don't care?

Most Americans are not like us. They're more concerned about the fact that Joe Millionaire and Zora aren't dating anymore. 47 million Americans watched Joe Millionaire. More Americans watched the Oscars than the war coverage on other networks combined. what does that tell you about the way Americans are making their decisions about this war?
Well this post is all over the map, but it irritates me so I will try and respond the best I can.

First of all, your assumption is that only American's don't educate themselves or get the facts. Believe me, it is in every country in the world.

And the lack of education on the subject goes both ways. I have done A LOT of personal research, reading, reading through the UN resolutions, reading and listening to debates of both points of view before deciding how I felt on this issue.
I was just watching a show a few days ago where they were interviewing protestors in differenct cities in America.

the results:
Most could not name the final UN resolution that did not make it through the Security Council.

They only found one person that knew how many resolutions Saddam had breached.

They said 20% didn't know the name of the Iraqi president

50% of the people they asked didn't know who Donald Rumsfield was.

Asked why they were against the war, most answers were "because the world disagrees", because peace is the answer", "because war kills", "because Bush wants more oil", etc... hardly any answered with any actual factual reasons.

So I definitely agree, American's are dumb when it comes to educating themselves on these sort of issues. So is the majority of the rest of the world. I would expect similar dumb responses from pro-war demonstrators (like -because you have to back the president).

And I don't really know what you mean by all the election stuff and Joe Millionaire. But I must say - I really have done a lot of homework on this issue and am glad I have, I've learned a lot from both sides of the issue - I voted (for Gore), I watched Joe Millionaire (and I liked Zora).
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:10 AM   #48
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I really hope that you meant to put a "not" in that sentence and overlooked that. Americans are not dumb. But unfortunately there's a large percentage that are very much brain washed right now. Which may be even more dangerous.
Oh gawd! I did forget the not. which makes it mean something completely different now -- and what I meant to say. thanks for that.
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:21 AM   #49
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Originally posted by womanfish


And I don't really know what you mean by all the election stuff and Joe Millionaire. But I must say - I really have done a lot of homework on this issue and am glad I have, I've learned a lot from both sides of the issue - I voted (for Gore), I watched Joe Millionaire (and I liked Zora).
I liked Zora too!

what I was trying to say is that rather than educate themselves on the issues, Americans would rather not. Take Canada. Yes they do have a day off for work and yes they do come to your house to make sure you're registered to vote but still. 90some% of their citizens vote in their major parliamentary election. For the most part, Americans just don't care. We're sending hundreds of thousands of troops to Iraq and a majority of Americans don't know where Iraq is.

I guess I'm just frustrated. I don't care if you support the war or are against it or indifferent if you want to be, but make sure you make that decision on the knowledge you collect and not because your hippie friends are going to an anti-war rally or some country music star tells you that Saddam needs a boot in his ass.
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Old 03-26-2003, 03:29 PM   #50
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Originally posted by Dreadsox

2nd This question is easily turned on you. If you are so passionate about the wrong we are doing why aren't you there acting as a human shield?
I am against this war. If everybody who's against this war goes there as a human shield and gets killed by the pro-war guys, there will be no more protests, no controversy... That's what you want. Nooooooooo...
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Old 03-26-2003, 03:30 PM   #51
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Originally posted by sharky

I guess I'm just frustrated. I don't care if you support the war or are against it or indifferent if you want to be, but make sure you make that decision on the knowledge you collect and not because your hippie friends are going to an anti-war rally or some country music star tells you that Saddam needs a boot in his ass.
Great!!!
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Old 03-26-2003, 03:32 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEXRUS


I am against this war. If everybody who's against this war goes there as a human shield and gets killed by the pro-war guys, there will be no more protests, no controversy... That's what you want. Nooooooooo...


Why do you insist on putting words into my mouth?

For war protesters who are protesting lawfully, I applaud them. It is one of the things I love about my country.

I have never wished someone who excersized their rights DEAD.
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Old 03-26-2003, 03:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky


I liked Zora too!

what I was trying to say is that rather than educate themselves on the issues, Americans would rather not. Take Canada. Yes they do have a day off for work and yes they do come to your house to make sure you're registered to vote but still. 90some% of their citizens vote in their major parliamentary election. For the most part, Americans just don't care. We're sending hundreds of thousands of troops to Iraq and a majority of Americans don't know where Iraq is.

I guess I'm just frustrated. I don't care if you support the war or are against it or indifferent if you want to be, but make sure you make that decision on the knowledge you collect and not because your hippie friends are going to an anti-war rally or some country music star tells you that Saddam needs a boot in his ass.

Now you're talkin' Sharky! I totally agree with what you say here. I just frustrated that people think that NO Americans are educated on the subject. Believe me, I know most don't take the time.

And I have been trying to get this message out around here for a long time. I think so many of the protestors are out there and they have no clue what it's about or what's going on. I also think there are large parts of the pro-war movement who are just as clueless. I was flipping by Country Music Television last night and they had Toby Keith Live last night (I hate country by the way) but all of the people standing and cheering at every pro military word he threw out, talking about kicking other countries asses, etc... just made me sick, just like watching peace protests break out into violence.
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:30 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEXRUS


I am against this war. If everybody who's against this war goes there as a human shield and gets killed by the pro-war guys, there will be no more protests, no controversy... That's what you want. Nooooooooo...
So, "pro-war" operatives recruit human shileds so they can be killed and eliminate dissent?
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:33 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox




Why do you insist on putting words into my mouth?

For war protesters who are protesting lawfully, I applaud them. It is one of the things I love about my country.

I have never wished someone who excersized their rights DEAD.
I love this post
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:35 PM   #56
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

So, "pro-war" operatives recruit human shileds so they can be killed and eliminate dissent?
No, I just mean that some of us should stay here...so that you remember we are someone. No more, no less.
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Old 03-26-2003, 05:36 PM   #57
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ALEXRUS - please respect what DreadSox (or any other poster for that matter) is posting, do not force words into their mouths, or insinuate that what they're saying is something they really aren't.


Please respect your fellow posters.

Thanks!
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Old 03-26-2003, 05:51 PM   #58
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I will be the only one to answer my own question Moderators, merge it with brettig thread if you want to...

Thinking out loud...
I can only guess what is behind the curtains. Many reasons for this war have been cited.

Some of the arguments USUALLY mentioned by anti-Bush, anti-war people.
One is that it's all about oil. Of course, US needs cheap energy supply to give a boost to its stagnating economy. Though US companies will not be able to refurbish Iraqi oil wells and begin production of oil rapidly... but it will be enough to stabilize world oil prices at the level acceptable for the US economy. Can it be the only reason for starting this war? Only one of them...
Another is that some people in US administration have personal interests in this war. No doubt Cheney's Halliburton will make lots of money in the post-war reconstruction of Iraq but one can hardly imagine in earnest Cheney dictating to "ignorant" Bush: 'It's time to bomb Saddam'. Personal interests are there but they are not enough...
Another reason (often cited in my country, partially has to do with the 1st one) is that US now is a 'loose cannon' which has lost its only counterweight in the Cold War. With no one to oppose it seeks to establish its dominance in the world. First, it will be Middle East and control over oil reserves there. Everyone who opposes it, will share the fate of Iraq...etc. Many ppl call it "America's geostrategic goal". I will not comment on that.

Some of the arguments USUALLY mentioned by the war supporters.
1. It's about disarmament. It's highly probable that Iraq has WMD, at least bio- and chemical weapons. It's impossible to make it disarm through UN inspections. 12 years of Saddam playing tricks with the world community etc.
2. Iraq is a threat (if not to US) to its immediate neighbours. Saddam attacked Israel, Kuwait and Iran.
3. It's about regime change. Saddam's the worst tyrant living on Earth, killed thousands of his own people, gassed Kurds. That's intolerable. We remove Saddam, help Iraqi people choose a democratic government, then democracy will start spreading in the region cos ppl there will understand it's much better...
Actually all three mentioned reasons are interrelated. It's all about Saddam.

In my modest opinion ALL the abovementioned reasons together could not be enough to make the US start this war.

There is another, principal one that I omitted intentionally. Yes, whatever u call it: '9/11 aftershock', 'US security concern'...
But it needs a special post.
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Old 03-26-2003, 06:43 PM   #59
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Here it goes...
It's a hard question I (Russian outsider) am trying to answer.
Nevertheless, my deep conviction now (I may change it someday)is that the current war on Iraq would have never started if 9/11 had not happened...
It was a tragedy in itself. For the 1st time since Pearl Harbour America was attacked on its own territory. For the 1st time in history thousands of innocent civilians were killed in America...
9/11 demonstrated America was vulnerable. Despite CIA, FBI, Pentagon... And I dare to say America is vulnerable and wil remain vulnerable in the face of a terrorist attack despite Homeland Security, incredibly tough security measures in airports, tough immigration policy...
And America realises that. That's why America decided to identify POTENTIAL threats to its security and to eliminate them. It is a right step in principle but here we encounter a problem.
America is capable of breaking the backbone of 1, 2, 3...10 political regimes on the planet. But it is NOT able to implant democracy principles in the heads of people living there. Principles that America HAS to violate itself in its crusade in the name of humanism.
Unfortunately, America started acting superficially. Instead of addressing root causes of anti-Americanism (which sometimes may have extreme, violent forms) it opted for easy, "soft" targets, I dare to say. It's easier to overthrow a dictator who is not hiding, who is known to be a monster hated by everybody. It's much easier than to start a meticulous, painstaking work with a view to reducing if not eliminating anti-Americanism. Poverty, lack of drinking water, diseases - America is to be blamed for that. That is what millions of people in the 3rd world think. Unilateralist actions by the US will multiply the figure.
There's only way for the US to feel more secure in this world. To become a REAL flagship of democracy and justice for everyone not for the selected ones. To become a country without double standards that sticks to democratic principles however hard or...impossible it may seem even in its relations with the others. To become a country which hears (better if takes into account) opinions of the others not in words but in deeds. To become a country that "actively cooperates" with multilateral organizations. A country that prefers diplomacy to force. That prefers bad peace to a "good" war.


It is only my opinion.
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Old 03-26-2003, 07:32 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by womanfish

I think so many of the protestors are out there and they have no clue what it's about or what's going on. I also think there are large parts of the pro-war movement who are just as clueless. I was flipping by Country Music Television last night and they had Toby Keith Live last night (I hate country by the way) but all of the people standing and cheering at every pro military word he threw out, talking about kicking other countries asses, etc... just made me sick, just like watching peace protests break out into violence.
I agree with you here a little. IMO more people on the anti-war side are educated about the issues. At least in speaking to people at the protest. OF course there are lots of students wanting to join an anti-establishment thing too.

I think on the pro-war side is much more blind "I'm with the gov't because it takes work to explore other ideas. I live in a rural area and the mindset is flag waving no matter what. Very little dissention at all.

In trying to start a stimulating conversation with my neighbors, ect. they have no clue the bad things my gov't has done or not done. As long as they can live their day to day lives all is well.
It is like the partyline, whichever party, is always right. It rather disgusts me truly.
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