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Old 04-08-2008, 12:51 PM   #91
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Originally posted by Irvine511





again, experience can give you people like Cheney and Rumsfeld.

it's about leadership, judgment, and temperance.
Leadership is at the core of what being a military officer is about. McCain was a military officer for 23 years and had to deal with situations on daily basis that required great leadership, judgment and temperance.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:34 PM   #92
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Originally posted by Strongbow


Leadership is at the core of what being a military officer is about. McCain was a military officer for 23 years and had to deal with situations on daily basis that required great leadership, judgment and temperance.


and if the military were the same thing as politics, you might have a point.

one consistent thing about McCain that has dogged him his entire career is his temperament, as this is one of the many things that Bush used against him to defeat him in 2000.

it's funny for you to pretend it isn't there, when it was used against him by the current president.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:42 PM   #93
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The American ppl will take John McCain's questionable tempremant over Hillary's ethics and Obama's inexperience.

Wait and see.

As I was correct in 04 so shall be in 09, causing only db9 to shine.

<>
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:09 PM   #94
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Originally posted by diamond
The American ppl will take John McCain's questionable tempremant over Hillary's ethics and Obama's inexperience.

<>
It's possible. The American ppl have had very bad judgment in the past, too.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:17 PM   #95
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Originally posted by diamond
The American ppl will take John McCain's questionable tempremant over Hillary's ethics and Obama's inexperience.


you may well be correct. there are far worse men out there than John McCain (whereas there were few worse men than Bush & Co.)

but we shall see.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:38 PM   #96
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u guys missed my whole db9ryhming jingle.

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Old 04-08-2008, 02:51 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and if the military were the same thing as politics, you might have a point.

one consistent thing about McCain that has dogged him his entire career is his temperament, as this is one of the many things that Bush used against him to defeat him in 2000.

it's funny for you to pretend it isn't there, when it was used against him by the current president.
it's funny that you gloss over most of McCain's life in favor of a few cherry picked allegations about his temperament and that you think Bush was right to pursue such an issue in his compaign against McCain back in 2000. Your hero Bill Clinton has had plenty of his own testy moments. But he never had to land an aircraft on a bobbing aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean in total darkness. I think it would be better to independently look at McCain's entire life in order to assess his temperament instead of just following the latest media flap up about him.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:56 PM   #98
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Originally posted by Strongbow


it's funny that you gloss over most of McCain's life in favor of a few cherry picked allegations about his temperament and that you think Bush was right to pursue such an issue in his compaign against McCain back in 2000.



slow down, kiddo. i didn't say Bush was "right" to make McCain out to be a raving lunatic with PTSD and psychotic tendencies. Bush did that all on his own, and it worked. i'm sorry it worked, as i thought what they did to him in 2000 was almost as disgusting as the Swift Boat ads, but it was done, and done effectively. as you continuously point out, the American people voted for George W. Bush. thus, they must be right. again, if we are to follow your own logic.




Quote:
Your hero Bill Clinton has had plenty of his own testy moments. But he never had to land an aircraft on a bobbing aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean in total darkness. I think it would be better to independently look at McCain's entire life in order to assess his temperament instead of just following the latest media flap up about him.

easy there, tiger! where i have i referred to Bill Clinton as my "hero"? or do you need to make shit up in order to try to make a point? lots of people have landed aircraft on carriers in total darkness. that does not make them good choices to be president. i know people who work for McCain, as well as lots of people who worked for Kyle, and i have heard plenty of stories about McCain and his famous temper. there is much to McCain's life that i admire. i do question his temperance, and especially his judgment about the appropriateness of war. it's good that he's gone to great lengths to distance himself from Bush, i respect that. but this does not mean i find him a better choice than Obama or Hillary.

the aircraft carrier thing is funny, too, since Bush has landed on an aircraft carrier.
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Old 04-08-2008, 04:45 PM   #99
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Originally posted by Irvine511
the aircraft carrier thing is funny, too, since Bush has landed on an aircraft carrier.
has landed

and had to land

are quite different
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Old 04-08-2008, 06:03 PM   #100
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has landed

and had to land

are quite different



but the irony abounds.

why didn't we just elect Martin Sheen?
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:42 PM   #101
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Originally posted by Irvine511



slow down, kiddo. i didn't say Bush was "right" to make McCain out to be a raving lunatic with PTSD and psychotic tendencies. Bush did that all on his own, and it worked. i'm sorry it worked, as i thought what they did to him in 2000 was almost as disgusting as the Swift Boat ads, but it was done, and done effectively. as you continuously point out, the American people voted for George W. Bush. thus, they must be right. again, if we are to follow your own logic.

Well, in Bush against McCain, a portion of the Republican party and some independents and Democrats got to vote in that contest, far away from being representive of the general public that votes in a election.

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easy there, tiger! where i have i referred to Bill Clinton as my "hero"? or do you need to make shit up in order to try to make a point?
I think your the one that needs to cool down.

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lots of people have landed aircraft on carriers in total darkness. that does not make them good choices to be president.
The vast majority of people have not and people who lose their patience quickly normally would not make it as a fighter pilot. John McCain proved himself as a great fighter pilot through out his entire career and despite his injuries from captivity was able to become physically fit again, have his flight status reinstated, and go on to lead the largest squadron in the Navy!

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i know people who work for McCain, as well as lots of people who worked for Kyle, and i have heard plenty of stories about McCain and his famous temper.
Yeah, and just about anyone who is in a position of authority in some way has had someone else say the same about them at one time or another. Should we discuss all the stories about Bill Clinton?


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i do question his temperance, and especially his judgment about the appropriateness of war.
Yeah, well unlike Obama or Hillary who are still learning about national security and foreign policy, McCain's judgement is impacted by his 50 years of actual experience on the issues.

What was Obama's position on the 1991 Gulf War? Did he side with the majority of his party that voted AGAINST removing Saddam's military from Kuwait with military force, or did he side with Bush Sr. and the Republicans? Given Obama's voting record in the senate, I find it unlikely that he would have voted with the Republicans in 1991.


Quote:
the aircraft carrier thing is funny, too, since Bush has landed on an aircraft carrier.
There are a lot of risk in landing an aircraft in the middle of the night on a carrier in rough seas. Nothing funny or easy about it at all. Navy and Marine pilots take a lot of risk on a daily basis in peace time that the general public does not know about.
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:40 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
There are a lot of risk in landing an aircraft in the middle of the night on a carrier in rough seas. Nothing funny or easy about it at all. Navy and Marine pilots take a lot of risk on a daily basis in peace time that the general public does not know about.
The fact that McCain has the patience to land a plane on a carrier in no way reflects his temperament when interacting with other people. It was one specific skill, practiced over and over and over again that was required to be a good pilot. His character didn't land the plane.

And the ability to land a plane on a carrier has almost nothing to do with your capability to lead a nation. There are lots of 'unsung heroes' in daily life who take on arduous, life-threatening tasks and do it with the utmost competence and professionalism, day in day out, but I would venture to say that it doesn't automatically qualify them as better able to lead a nation, nor does it guarantee that their character will be strong. Likewise, landing a plane on a carrier doesn't automatically vault you into some stratosphere of great character.

Iceman was kind of a jerk, after all.
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:56 PM   #103
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Originally posted by Diemen

There are lots of 'unsung heroes' in daily life who take on arduous, life-threatening tasks and do it with the utmost competence and professionalism, day in day out, but I would venture to say that it doesn't automatically qualify them as better able to lead a nation, nor does it guarantee that their character will be strong. Likewise, landing a plane on a carrier doesn't automatically vault you into some stratosphere of great character.

Iceman was kind of a jerk, after all.
Well said.
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:40 PM   #104
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And the ability to land a plane on a carrier has almost nothing to do with your capability to lead a nation.


you realize, of course, that this is Strongbow's argument.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:14 AM   #105
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Originally posted by Diemen


The fact that McCain has the patience to land a plane on a carrier in no way reflects his temperament when interacting with other people. It was one specific skill, practiced over and over and over again that was required to be a good pilot. His character didn't land the plane.

And the ability to land a plane on a carrier has almost nothing to do with your capability to lead a nation. There are lots of 'unsung heroes' in daily life who take on arduous, life-threatening tasks and do it with the utmost competence and professionalism, day in day out, but I would venture to say that it doesn't automatically qualify them as better able to lead a nation, nor does it guarantee that their character will be strong. Likewise, landing a plane on a carrier doesn't automatically vault you into some stratosphere of great character.

Iceman was kind of a jerk, after all.
McCain was not just a pilot who had some technical skill, he was a military officer. He interacted with other people in life or death situations that required far more temperament and good character traits than most people need to have in their daily lives. Being a military officer is not like being a robot. Leadership and good character are the most vital traits for the job.

Sorry, but your not going to beat McCain in this area and I know that Obama is not even going to try.
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