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Old 03-09-2003, 06:01 PM   #1
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The "Post Iraq" Challenge..

Well folks, sadly it appears war is inevitable w/Iraq.

So I propose a challenge to members on the left and members on the right.

Scenario 1-
The USA and Allies invade Iraq. Minimal casualies are lost. In a matter of days Iraq surrenders. The people of Iraq universally embrace the USA and her Allies.
The US and Allies uncover huge amounts of WMD and other chemical and biological weapons hidden from UN Inspectors.
These weapons would of never been found, w/o an invasion.
They bring these weapons to Bahgdad Town Square and pile them all there for the world to view.
Thru out the free world, GW is vinicated for his bold move.

The challenge- would the people here on the left admit they were wrong?

Scenario #2

The USA invades Iraq. It is a long drawn out affair. 100,000 of thousands die. No weapons are found. The USA's actions cause a riff in the Middle East..for a long protracted struggle..

The challenge- would the members on the right admit they were wrong, me included?

That is the challenge fellow members, what
say
you?
I
challenge
you
all.

Diamond
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Old 03-09-2003, 06:24 PM   #2
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Only if, under scenario 1, the ppl concerned don't go around saying "told ya so!"...I hate smugness!
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Old 03-09-2003, 06:38 PM   #3
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ok
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Old 03-09-2003, 07:40 PM   #4
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Re: The "Post Iraq" Challenge..

Quote:
Well folks, sadly it appears war is inevitable w/Iraq.
[Although I sadly am agreeing with you, I still think this mindset is dangerous. There is always hope even at the eleventh hour.]

Quote:
So I propose a challenge to members on the left and members on the right.

Scenario 1-
The USA and Allies invade Iraq. Minimal casualies are lost. In a matter of days Iraq surrenders. The people of Iraq universally embrace the USA and her Allies.
The US and Allies uncover huge amounts of WMD and other chemical and biological weapons hidden from UN Inspectors.
These weapons would of never been found, w/o an invasion.
They bring these weapons to Bahgdad Town Square and pile them all there for the world to view.
Thru out the free world, GW is vinicated for his bold move.

The challenge- would the people here on the left admit they were wrong?
[I feel this whole situation is already engineered to represent this scenario as best as possible. I feel that news media will be selective, especially since we've been told that the pentagon is going to basically censor all the media it controls. So, yes we will see Iraqi's hugging our soldiers.

I also believe that Iraq has WMD, and even if it doesn't, I thnk it'll be spun or fabricated that it does. I don't think we'll see them in town square though... more like in documents, reports, and at best any other means which allows for plausible deniability.

Another thing to reflect upon is that I don't think Bush will be fully vindicated in scenario 1, because it has been demonstratably shown that he has many other motives already documented and being played out by the letter. I think the BIG test will be AFTER the war... What are his actions going to be next? How does he follow through? Is he going to follow PNAC's suggestions to the letter? Is he going to build massive military bases in Iraq as a perfect logistical staging ground for another war in the mid-east? Is he going to follow through with the 'selection' of Chalabi? His actions after the war will truly show his character and motivations (even though his current actions already do, but like I said, we'll see).

So the challenge you present is, already at its inception, rigged. It's much the same kind of tactic Bill O'Reilly frequently uses to assure a 'win' on TV.]

Quote:
Scenario #2

The USA invades Iraq. It is a long drawn out affair. 100,000 of thousands die. No weapons are found. The USA's actions cause a riff in the Middle East..for a long protracted struggle..

The challenge- would the members on the right admit they were wrong, me included?
[Hopefully, by all means, this won't happen, but if it does, it most certainly will be downplayed by the media. There is just WAY too much at stake for Bush to lose face this badly.

I also fear the riff you speak of; the ground of the mideast is salted with too much anti-american sentiment. I do not believe that the first riff will be seen in the mid-east, however. I think we will see an opportunistic action from North Korea first. The only way to realistically deal with them when our forces are already spread thin, is by use of selective tactical nukes, and then holy shit, it'll have hit the fan. We'll see, I think, nuclear proliferation throughout the mideast, and the situation will quickly get out of control. but that is, of course, scenario 2 - hopefully it won't come to that.

Also, like I said, I don't think WMD will not be found, because I think Saddam has them, though *probably* not in huge quantities as suggested. If he doesn't, then I think the allies will invent them if necessary.]


Quote:
That is the challenge fellow members, what
say
you?
I
challenge
you
all.

Diamond
[I'll take up that challenge, but Like I said, it'll have to be done mostly by events AFTER the war. How does Bush follow-through? Is he a PNAC puppet? Will he leave good enough alone, and be happy with the removal of Saddam and his WMD, and the liberation of Iraq people? Or will he follow through with actions that will clearly implecate him with other agendas?

My position is that he will NOT stop with Iraq. I think we'd all be fools not to think there is more than meets the eye queued up after Iraq. Iran or North Korea being next.

BUT, if Bush does simply liberate the Iraqi people, remove Saddam, destroy his WMD, and NOT install a wanted felon and puppet leader, does NOT deal out the corporate contracts to his buddies in the rebuilding of Iraq, and leaves behind his administration's plans for a pax americana, then I will definitely admit I'm wrong, because of course, I will have been. I will even send you, Diamond, a six pack of your favorite beer via mail order courtesy me. I probably still won't change many of my opinions and views on Bush, however, because if it DOES happen, it'll probably be due to some intense world-wide political pressure. ]
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Old 03-09-2003, 07:58 PM   #5
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cool.
its Sapporo.

thank u
very
much.

db9
http://www.sapporousa.com/home_frames/home_center.html
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Old 03-10-2003, 04:03 AM   #6
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interesting that in these two scenarios, half of the American voting public has to face defeat... maybe if we added some different "parties" we could have several less extreme results that take into account local desires and relationships that heretofore have not been considered...i am especially thinking of the lack or modern music that has been blockaded for these many long years...surely some thinking individuals could bring peace through greater knowledge of the top forty, so bands like Bon Jovi could waft through the streets and create a sense of awe and comaderie among so many opposing people, let's all get along, and decide on ONE common solution, i say! (just my .02)

If New Jersey bands can't find a way to the end of this long dark tunnel, no one can...(*looks for fence to sit on)
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Old 03-10-2003, 08:32 AM   #7
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"Post Iraq" that makes me think of "Pro western Dicatator in Iraq" sorry, he might be called King - that sounds better. A war with North Korea and a preperation of the next war - maybe Iran? Saudi Arabia? (well the Saudis only if Iraq works and the new man in Iraq is really 200% pro US)

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Old 03-10-2003, 09:26 AM   #8
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so far 3 of us have gave answers i hoped for.
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Old 03-11-2003, 01:37 PM   #9
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First of all, let me just say that I have never had a problem in admitting to being wrong, especially about war. I must say, I was all in favour for the occurences in Kosovo, and how the US and NATO handled it then, only to admit that I was wrong afterwards. The truth is the action carried out then and there was not right, and I do regret supporting it. I supported the action taken in Afghanistan, knowing full well that Bin-Laden would never be captured, and I still do.

Your scenarios, though interesting, are very generally summarising reasons oppose/support war. I would have liked to have fully participated in your hypothetical scenario, but it doesn't talk to everyone. You see, I have no doubt that weapons of mass destruction are to be found in Iraq. How many? I am not sure of. How much did Saddam Hussein leave out from his declaration? Who can say? Probably more than substantial. The fact that he has weapons of mass destruction, to me, is not particularly daunting. Like others, I am far more concerned with North Korea, I would like to see a more decisive course of action THERE.

My point is the reasons and motives outlined in your scenario no. 1 wouldn't lead me to admit that I was wrong. What would lead me to admit that I was wrong would be for Iraq to start invading his neighbouring countries (as he did back in the Iranian war, which didn't worry much of the 'free world' then at all), blast off bio-chemical warheads to destroy Britain and the US, and for irrefutable evidence to lead me beyond reasonable doubt that there is a direct and proclaimed link between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, as there was with the Taliban in Afghanistan. If this was all provided, I would not only admit that I was wrong, I would admit that Bush was right.

Ant.
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