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Old 10-05-2005, 03:09 PM   #61
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart

the thing of it is...gays and supporters of gay marraige can vote. no one is denying them suffrage.

the argument you make sounds nice, but you're discussing two different things. in the case of blacks and women, they were not even given the ability to vote one way or the other. they were completely prevented from giving any truly meaningful input aside from trying to sway voters using their freedoms of speech, assembly, and petition (if those were actually enforced).

however, as gays and their supporters ARE afforded the right to vote, along with the freedoms of speech, assembly, and petition.

so, please, let's not make anymore false comparisons.

and finally, i find it slightly ironic that the comparison is being made between gay marraige and women/minority suffrage, and your solution to the problem is simply to discount the votes of those you don't agree with.

it seems that in most human interaction, we cannot assert our own rights without at the same time denying the rights of others. maybe that's the way it's meant to be. maybe all human life is just an intricate system of compromises. and if it is, we should start owning up to it instead of complaining about it.


while BVS can certainly speak for himself, you've missed the point: civil rights are not up for a "majority rules" kind of vote. it is the responsibility of any society to ensure that the rights of a minority are not subject to the whims of a majority.

its not the suffrage and gay marriage are equal violations of human rights; it's that they are both examples of where the majority of the population would not have supported either measure if either suffrage or interracial marriage or gay marriage were left up to the whims of the voters. it would have taken much, much longer for black votes and female votes and black-white marriages if not for those "activist judges."
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:26 PM   #62
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^ Exactly. Even Coretta Scott King and others from the civil rights movement draw the comparison.
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:52 PM   #63
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


Would you support polygamy?
This has to be the worse example when debating this topic. First of all the two aren't comparable. Secondly my original statement said 2 consenting adults(true consent in polygamy is a very interesting web which I won't go into in here) Also Irvine made a very good point about this subject, so I won't say anymore.



Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher

Also, I'm not sure marriage is a "right".
Although this is a very weak argument in itself, but what I originally said was:

Quote:
What's right is that all law abiding and consentual adults be given fair treatment and equal rights.
I think you missed the fair treatment part.
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:54 PM   #64
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart

the thing of it is...gays and supporters of gay marraige can vote. no one is denying them suffrage....

I thank Irvine for making my point clear.

Let's also remember that some States still technically had interacial marriage laws still in the books until recently.
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Old 10-05-2005, 06:58 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

...(who, let's face it, are probably going to be much more monogamous and commited than the majority of straight couples especially with their 50% divorce rate) ....
This constant painting yourselves to be different really isn't helpful. It voids also, your right to criticise your opposition for making sweeping generalisations whn you guys pull them out fo your arses, too.

I'm adamantly for gay marriage, as a right. Full stop. period. But comments like this put you in the same place as those you are angrily fighting. Give it a rest, guys. Let the bigots wallow in their hatred and lack of understanding. Dont join them...Unless you particularly want to.
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Old 10-05-2005, 08:38 PM   #66
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I still stand by a prior thread where I felt that the vote should be made by the residents in the state.

I know and understand that it means some states would be against it. Some states would be for it.

I think that it would mean more to the cause than if a court or legislature interfered. I also understand that the interference of the governement to help get civil rights in the past was necessary to push this country towards equality, but I almost believe this proves my point.....this country was not ready for the civil rights movement. I sometimes wonder if we would be further along towards equality today if it was allowed more time to develop.....However, how long should a people have to wait.

Still thinking....

Peace
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:40 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


This constant painting yourselves to be different really isn't helpful. It voids also, your right to criticise your opposition for making sweeping generalisations whn you guys pull them out fo your arses, too.


i respectfully disagree, and here's why: in both our countries, the divorce rate is close to 50%. that's a fact. it's also not a secret that lesbian couples tend to stay together longer than straight couples. yes, these are generalizations, but the are rooted in fact. it should go without saying that there are always exceptions, but politics demands that you treat people as members of a group rather than as individuals. politics requires you to make decsions based upon similarities with whatever group (i.e., republican or democrat? conservative or labor?)

to expound upon that a bit, art is precisely the opposite of that -- art is the exploration of how the individual is different from the group.

i think that there are real differences, real gender differences that same-sex relationships tend to magnify, and that the thing to do is fight for acceptance of and celebration of the fact that we are all different, but deserve to be treated equally. i think more will be accomplished by acknowledging difference and getting other people to understand and accept and even embrace how we are different -- no apologies.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:41 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I still stand by a prior thread where I felt that the vote should be made by the residents in the state.

I know and understand that it means some states would be against it. Some states would be for it.

I think that it would mean more to the cause than if a court or legislature interfered. I also understand that the interference of the governement to help get civil rights in the past was necessary to push this country towards equality, but I almost believe this proves my point.....this country was not ready for the civil rights movement. I sometimes wonder if we would be further along towards equality today if it was allowed more time to develop.....However, how long should a people have to wait.

Still thinking....

Peace

all very interesting

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Old 10-05-2005, 11:50 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i respectfully disagree, and here's why: in both our countries, the divorce rate is close to 50%. that's a fact. it's also not a secret that lesbian couples tend to stay together longer than straight couples. yes, these are generalizations, but the are rooted in fact. it should go without saying that there are always exceptions, but politics demands that you treat people as members of a group rather than as individuals. politics requires you to make decsions based upon similarities with whatever group (i.e., republican or democrat? conservative or labor?)
Are not some, if not all, stereotypes rooted in some fact?

As I read Angela Harlem's post, it was not the stereotype that bothered her, but the value judgment of one group being better than another based on that stereotype.
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Old 10-06-2005, 12:33 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Are not some, if not all, stereotypes rooted in some fact?

As I read Angela Harlem's post, it was not the stereotype that bothered her, but the value judgment of one group being better than another based on that stereotype.
Yes, thank you.



I dont want to pull this way off topic, but the idea that homosexuals or heterosexuals will have the handle on strength in marriage seems odd to me. It is thoroughly up to individuals who are determined to make it work, and even then the most determined can be defeated in marriage from influences beyond their control. Are the statistics you cite taking into account that the volume of hetero relationships grossly outweighs those of the gay and lesbian demographic? Still, and ultimately, statistics can spit out whatever we like, but it still depends on the 2 involved in a relationship as to whether it will work or not.
I'm sidetracking though
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Old 10-06-2005, 12:36 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
this country was not ready for the civil rights movement. I sometimes wonder if we would be further along towards equality today if it was allowed more time to develop.....However, how long should a people have to wait.
We can think in decades forgetting that people are sincerely being hurt in the process. It's comments like this that accent my point: white heterosexual males have all the time in the world when their rights aren't in the balance.

Melon
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Old 10-06-2005, 03:38 AM   #72
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ho boy another gay thread. yipee. Props to irvine and melon but it's not like anyone's mind will be changed.
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Old 10-06-2005, 03:45 AM   #73
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Fuck this shit gets me angry sometimes. All you people who keep up the endless rearguard action, arguing against gay anything on grounds of 'law' or 'family' or 'democracy'... what is it that you actually believe? What is it that should stop someone like me from regarding you as bigots?

If private lives are really so very private, so very sacred in their privacy, why does this shit keep coming up? I know why, it's a part of the culture war that may one day turn into a real (civil) war for your country if you aren't bloody careful.
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Old 10-06-2005, 05:59 AM   #74
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Let people do what they want and they will stop bitching, its win freaking win.
/there is minor sarcasm in there.
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Old 10-06-2005, 07:57 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


We can think in decades forgetting that people are sincerely being hurt in the process. It's comments like this that accent my point: white heterosexual males have all the time in the world when their rights aren't in the balance.

Melon
I think my comment is pretty clear that I am not sure how long people are supposed to wait. It's comments like this that draw a line in the sand making it us against you.

If you read my comment and missed the fact that I am not for making people wait, and it makes me as upset as a "white hetereosexual male" can be, since clearly I should feel guilty for being in that subgroup.

If you do not agree that the "equality" that minorities have in this country is still not universally accepted, quite possibly because of the manner in which it was pushed on the country fine. My fear, as someone who loves his gay relatives tremendously, is that if it is forced BY THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH or the COURT you are getting a legal piece of paper, and not the will of the people. WHen that happens, the will of the people will take YEARS longer to change.

I know my aunt would prefer to have the people around her accept her, verses the piece of paper first. Point being, you will still be discriminated against without a change in the mindset.
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