The people's voice on gay marriage - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-05-2005, 12:12 PM   #31
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 10:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

What may be helpful is to understand the broader public sentiment on the subject.
I think we've had a thread on here where people stated their case against gay marriage. I remember being extremely unimpressed.
__________________

__________________
DrTeeth is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 12:39 PM   #32
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 09:26 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

oops
__________________

__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 12:43 PM   #33
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


A blue state. That voted against gay marriage.

It is so convenient to blame right wing Christians for the lack of gay marriage

California is not a bastion of right wing Christians. It isn't a bastion of right wing people.

Yet, it voted against gay marriage.

What may be helpful is to understand the broader public sentiment on the subject.

firstly, don't put words in my mouth. where have i pointed towards christians?

secondly, i bet if you held the vote today, it would be a much different story. the early '00s have been to gays what the early 60s were to african americans. and, likewise, the population as a whole, including straight white men who are usually the slowest to keep up with the curve, will eventually come around.

and, as it goes, "broader public sentiment" is now in favor of civil unions at a minimum.

give it time.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-05-2005, 12:44 PM   #34
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


Also Michigan is a blue state which also voted against gay marriage.


a socially conservative blue state.

give it time.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:03 PM   #35
War Child
 
MaxFisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 776
Local Time: 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and, as it goes, "broader public sentiment" is now in favor of civil unions at a minimum.

give it time.
This isn't a debate about civil unions.
__________________
MaxFisher is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:08 PM   #36
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


This isn't a debate about civil unions.


i said "at a minimum." they are a stepping stone, and while i have some intellectual problems with civil unions, if they are in every way equal to a marriage except in name, then what's the difference?

and, to me, this is really the crux of a majority of people's discomfort with gay marriage -- people get hung up on the word "marrige" since they are bombarded from the time they are toddlers with images of marriage, and all of those images are hetereosexual.

as, once upon a time, all those images were of people of the same race.

do you see yourself marrying someone of the same race only?

do you think, had you been born 50 years ago, you could only see yourself marrying someone of the same race?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:11 PM   #37
War Child
 
MaxFisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 776
Local Time: 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
a socially conservative blue state.
give it time.
Sorry. I guess all blue states aren't created equal.

You write a long post making an argument that educational system in blue states tend to be superior to those of red states. You bring up the email which outlines the IQ scores in the red states as opposed to the blue states. Yet then, when two blue states are shown that voted against gay marriage, you either discredit the vote saying it took place to long ago (5 years) or you minimize the actual social liberalism of the state.

No matter what the facts show, you'll always find an excuse.
__________________
MaxFisher is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:25 PM   #38
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 05:26 PM
With any luck in a few years we will look back at this anti gay marriage hysteria and wonder why we had our heads shoved so far up our own arses.

To me the "right" to marry (even for gays! ) has always been. We just have to remove a bit more of the caveman in us as a society.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:26 PM   #39
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


Sorry. I guess all blue states aren't created equal.

You write a long post making an argument that educational system in blue states tend to be superior to those of red states. You bring up the email which outlines the IQ scores in the red states as opposed to the blue states. Yet then, when two blue states are shown that voted against gay marriage, you either discredit the vote saying it took place to long ago (5 years) or you minimize the actual social liberalism of the state.

No matter what the facts show, you'll always find an excuse.


you're missing the forest for the trees.

5 years is an eternity in politics.

the first states to pass gay marriage will be blue (does it get any bluer than massachusetts?). all states that either have civil unions (connecticut, vermont) or pending civil unions (new york, new jersey, california) are blue. also, many cities have civil union-type laws (nyc, sf, DC).

my point about education still stands.

no excuses. just an appreciation of nuance.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:35 PM   #40
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher
Then who determines civil rights?

What if the whim of the voters eventually is to support gay marriage but a conservative supreme court deems it unconstitutional?

Massachusetts aside, the "people" have voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage, including people in "blue states". These votes must be respected. I would feel the same way if they had voted in favor of gay marriage.

I find the flippant belittlement of these votes troublesome. Last time I checked we were living in a democracy.
Not that I expect white Protestant heterosexual males to ever understand, but just imagine if your rights and freedoms were subject to the approval of a body mostly dominated by black people or Hispanics or <insert group here> who saw your freedoms and civil rights to be an inconvenient hassle that might lose votes if they helped you out?

Quite frankly, it is downright offensive that the rights of homosexuals are subject to the whims and prejudices of heterosexuals, particularly when your rights are never affected. Ever. In all these Supreme Court fights, the big underlying notion is that whomever is elected, no matter how "liberal" or "conservative," the rights of white males are never in question. Ever.

But, like I said, I don't expect you to ever understand. White Protestant heterosexual males never have to understand, because nothing ever changes for them.

I think gay people should invade a small state like Rhode Island and make vaginal sex and opposite-sex marriages illegal. And then the overwhelmingly gay Rhode Island legislature could ignore the protests from the heterosexual minority for years, and then come up with half-assed gestures like "domestic partnerships" or "civil unions." Of course, then the overwhelmingly gay populace could then create a petition to void those "activist legislators." Then we could also treat all unmarried heterosexual men as "child molesters" (since, you know, all unmarried middle aged men MUST be perverts) and take their children away from them for their "safety." Maybe then white Protestant heterosexual males would understand.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:38 PM   #41
War Child
 
MaxFisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 776
Local Time: 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
the first states to pass gay marriage will be blue (does it get any bluer than massachusetts?). all states that either have civil unions (connecticut, vermont) or pending civil unions (new york, new jersey, california) are blue. also, many cities have civil union-type laws (nyc, sf, DC).

my point about education still stands.

no excuses. just an appreciation of nuance.
You're changing the rules of the debate by using "civil unions".
You may view "civil unions" and "gay marriage" as the same. I don't. Yes, as you mentioned earlier, the terms do have similar connotations, but, I don't believe they share the same meaning.

But whatever. We disagree.

As you say, give it time. This issue will work itself out sooner or later.
__________________
MaxFisher is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:50 PM   #42
War Child
 
MaxFisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 776
Local Time: 09:26 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Not that I expect white Protestant heterosexual males to ever understand.
Well, I'm baptist, but close enough.

I guess my only saving grace is that I'm from a blue state! Oh!...I also subscribe to the The New Yorker, The New Republic, and Harpers. Those are pretty liberal publications. Does that count for anything?
__________________
MaxFisher is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:52 PM   #43
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


You're changing the rules of the debate by using "civil unions".
You may view "civil unions" and "gay marriage" as the same. I don't. Yes, as you mentioned earlier, the terms do have similar connotations, but, I don't believe they share the same meaning.


at the heart of this is, to me, the most interesting philosophical question.

are civil unions like Diet Marriage, or Marriage Lite?

to be intellecutally purist about it, i believe in marriage equality, which means that gay people don't get gay married, they get married. period. if you really want to weaken the institution of marriage, allowing a bunch of gay men and lesbians (who, let's face it, are probably going to be much more monogamous and commited than the majority of straight couples especially with their 50% divorce rate) won't do it; but creating this Marriage Lite alternative, which would probably be open to straight people as well, just might do that.

aside from Massachusetts and virtually every major metropolitian area (which, when combined, probably gives us upwards of 40m+ people) where you'd find a majority in favor of marriage equality, i equate the two because i believe that most people in Blue States view civil unions as essentialy the same thing as marriage, just with a different name that makes them feel a bit more comfortable. it's a recognition that gay people are human, have valid loves and lives that are worthy of societal protections.

do you think a majority of people in the red states believe the same thing?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:53 PM   #44
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher
Well, I'm baptist, but close enough.
Psst...Baptists are Protestants too.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:53 PM   #45
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 04:26 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


Well, I'm baptist, but close enough.

I guess my only saving grace is that I'm from a blue state! Oh!...I also subscribe to the The New Yorker, The New Republic, and Harpers. Those are pretty liberal publications. Does that count for anything?


what is your personal opinion on marriage equality? and please explain why you believe whatever it is that you do.

i am curious.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com