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Old 10-05-2005, 10:52 AM   #16
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
When they know they are right.
People's view of "right" is relative.

It must be nice to know what "right" is.

You sound like an evangelical christian.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:52 AM   #17
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

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Originally posted by MaxFisher


There was strong support in many other states for these civil rights laws to be passed.
But what you don't understand is at one time there wasn't, so did that make it right up until there was majority support? You are completely avoiding that question.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:54 AM   #18
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


People's view of "right" is relative.

It must be nice to know what "right" is.

You sound like an evangelical christian.
What's right is that all law abiding and consentual adults be given fair treatment and eual rights, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an evangelical christian to figure that out.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:59 AM   #19
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
What's right is that all law abiding and consentual adults be given fair treatment and eual rights.
Would you support polygamy?
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:04 AM   #20
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Also, I'm not sure marriage is a "right".

I have a "desire" to be married, but I don't think it's my "right" to be married.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:09 AM   #21
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It never seizes to amaze me how this is still an issue.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:12 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
It never seizes to amaze me how this is still an issue.


agreed.

it's all going to look so silly in 5-10 years when rights will vary, state by state, but in a majority of states at the very least civil unions will be offered, in the more progressive and educated states (New England, New York, some Lake States, the West Coast), and, once again, the Red States will be looked upon as ignorant and backwards and the bastion of bigots, just as they were during the civil rights era.

i'm out.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:20 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
the Red States will be looked upon as ignorant and backwards and the bastion of bigots
Irvine, your rhetoric is so touching. Maybe someday, with a lot of enlightenment, I'll be able to become an understanding and sensitive person like you.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher
Also, I'm not sure marriage is a "right".

I have a "desire" to be married, but I don't think it's my "right" to be married.
In that sense, no, marriage is not a right. If you'd like to be married but don't have a willing partner, the government is under no obligation to provide you with one, nor can you select any schlub off the street and demand that someone recognize that person as your spouse just because you want one.

On the other hand, if two consenting adults mutually agree that they'd like to be married, how is it not a reasonable expectation that they should be allowed to do so?
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


Irvine, your rhetoric is so touching. Maybe someday, with a lot of enlightenment, I'll be able to become an understanding and sensitive person like you.


you know what: i don't give a shit.

not about you personally, but about the simple fact that the Red States have been on the wrong side of history several times in the past, and the Blue States are, unquestionably, more educated. if that's snobbery, i'm happy to live with it.

Note Bene: i didn't say intelligent; i said educated.

the three most educated cities in the country are NYC, SanFran, and DC.

the state with the best colleges is Massachusetts.

we've all seen the IQ email and about which states voted for whom.

best public schools in the nation? Connecticut.

best public unversity system? California.

there is more than a casual link between the education of voters and their tolerance for diversity. one caveat: this does not translate into voting republican or democrat, as many eduated voters are also wealthy and thusly want lower taxes.

the urban areas of this country are always, always the most liberal (with perhaps the exception of ... you guessed it, *college* towns like Austin, Madison, Ann Arbor, Athens, etc.) and that's because that's where the most educated move and it's also where, guess what, people live every day with real, actual diversity. they're also the people most likely to be killed in a terrorist attack, yet they don't seem to support the GWOT as Bush defines it.

why? i'd point to the role of education and how it enables one to question orthodoxy, to live with ambiguity, to appreciate nuance, to adopt the worldview of another, and to value pluralism.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:42 AM   #26
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
best public unversity system? California.
Proposition 22 -- which read, in its entirety, ''Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California" -- was ratified by a lopsided majority of California voters, winning more than 4.6 million votes and carrying 52 of the state's 58 counties.

Let me guess, the 6 counties that voted against it all contained the best public universities.
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:05 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
best public unversity system? California.
A blue state. That voted against gay marriage.

It is so convenient to blame right wing Christians for the lack of gay marriage

California is not a bastion of right wing Christians. It isn't a bastion of right wing people.

Yet, it voted against gay marriage.

What may be helpful is to understand the broader public sentiment on the subject.
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


A blue state. That voted against gay marriage.

It is so convenient to blame right wing Christians for the lack of gay marriage

California is not a bastion of right wing Christians. It isn't a bastion of right wing people.

Yet, it voted against gay marriage.

What may be helpful is to understand the broader public sentiment on the subject.
Also Michigan is a blue state which also voted against gay marriage.
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Old 10-05-2005, 12:11 PM   #30
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Proposition 22 was also 5 years ago and may not accurately reflect today's opinion. I for one have changed my mind about a lot of things over the last 5 years.
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