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Old 09-12-2006, 06:27 PM   #76
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What if freeing every terrorist in Gitmo doesn’t stop it?
Once again, who is asking for this?
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Old 09-12-2006, 06:32 PM   #77
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have refined a skill in identifying young men of varying social backgrounds and economic advantage who are prepared to make supreme sacrifices for a cause." They are not necessarily loners but are attracted to "the excitement of being a part of that select fugitive family," they have strong "personal self-esteem," they seek "adventure and purpose."
This same exact quote can be said for members of the bloods, crips, KKK, neo-nazis, etc.

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Painting our enemy as poor and uneducated is misleading.
Yes to paint any group with two words is very misleading. But to dismiss these things is completely naive.
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Old 09-12-2006, 06:41 PM   #78
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Wow, you really are one for twisting words.

The reasons you gave for liberals to be leading this war are ridiculous.
How about this reason - your enemy wants to either convert you or saw off your head.

If freedom isn't worth fighting for - then what is? Is nothing worth fighting for? Your family? Your friends? The right to listen to U2?

Our enemy laughs at our disunity and is using it against us (like any wise enemy would). They see us as weak and unwilling to do what it takes to win. But they are only partially correct.

Men like me have drawn a line, and so have many others. I would rather die fighting than sit back and let my wife and kids suffer under Sharia law. For me (and my brothers and sisters in the armed forces as well as Homeland Security, Border Patrol, FBI...etc) it took a 9-11 to wake me up and make me sign on the dotted line - for the rest of country, it will unfortunately take something far worse.

There are some things worth fighting for, worth dying for. Freedom to NOT be Muslim is one of them.
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Old 09-12-2006, 06:48 PM   #79
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AEON, I never stated nothing is worth fighting for. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and retrace your steps for you are clouding many many different issues into one.
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Old 09-12-2006, 06:49 PM   #80
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
AEON, I never stated nothing is worth fighting for. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and retrace your steps for you are clouding many many different issues into one.
Just so I understand - what do you feel is worth fighting for?
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Old 09-12-2006, 06:52 PM   #81
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Just so I understand - what do you feel is worth fighting for?
There are a lot of things worth fighting for, but that isn't the question you should be asking. The question should be are we fighting the right fight, is this really the only way it needs to be done, will we gain more or lose more with this fight? These are the questions you should be asking.

You paint everything so black and white, we live in a grey world. Hate to break it to you.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


There are a lot of things worth fighting for,
Please give us a few examples. Please help me from “clouding” – I want to understand your position clearly.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

but that isn't the question you should be asking. The question should be are we fighting the right fight,
Preventing radical Islam from taking over the world (and only a fool believes that is not their goal) is absolutely the right fight.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

is this really the only way it needs to be done, will we gain more or lose more with this fight?
No this is not the only way it needs to be done. We need to take this war as serious as World War II (even MORE serious).

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You paint everything so black and white, we live in a grey world. Hate to break it to you.
Sometimes things are black and white. There is nothing “grey” about an army of men running toward you and your family to chop off your heads or evaporate you with a nuke.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:21 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
[B]If freedom isn't worth fighting for - then what is? Is nothing worth fighting for? Your family? Your friends? The right to listen to U2?
you should check out my appreciation thread.


[q]Our enemy laughs at our disunity and is using it against us (like any wise enemy would). They see us as weak and unwilling to do what it takes to win. But they are only partially correct.[/q]

then our enemy is stupid. the huge debate over how we deal with "the enemy" is a sign of the strength and robustness of our democracy. for all of us to march in lock step -- as Cheney would like us to do -- would be evidence that they have won, that they have destroyed the freedoms we enjoy.

[q]Men like me have drawn a line, and so have many others. I would rather die fighting than sit back and let my wife and kids suffer under Sharia law.[/q]

do you really think it comes down to this? either we fight with tanks and bombs and guns or your wife is in a birka and i get beheaded in RFK stadium to a cheering crowd? isn't this exactly Bin Laden's worldview -- either one way or another?



[q]For me (and my brothers and sisters in the armed forces as well as Homeland Security, Border Patrol, FBI...etc) it took a 9-11 to wake me up and make me sign on the dotted line - for the rest of country, it will unfortunately take something far worse.[/q]

and everyone thanks you, and appreciates, the work you are putting in. but please keep in mind that there are many, many ways we can all participate.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:24 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Preventing radical Islam from taking over the world (and only a fool believes that is not their goal) is absolutely the right fight.


but do you see what a slippery slope this is? this is a far less credible line of thought than the notion that communism was going to take us over and make us all atheists. is there a threat? yes. but this deliberate overestimation is precisely what the administration wants, as it helps them consolidate executive power and write massive no-bid contracts. they did this in the 1970s with the USSR -- the threat was intentionally overblown so that we might justify greater military spending.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:39 PM   #85
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Quote:
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Please give us a few examples. Please help me from “clouding” – I want to understand your position clearly.
You're clouding the war on an ideaology with Iraq, you're clouding the fact that some see this as a piss poor planned war as being sympathetic to terrorists, you're clouding the fact that some would have liked to see other alternatives to war as not believing anything is worth fighting for...


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Preventing radical Islam from taking over the world (and only a fool believes that is not their goal) is absolutely the right fight.
Yeah, and you missed my point. Will this war actually stop that? Will it be a lifetime fight? Will continuously fighting the way we are allow for recruiting and the spread of radical Islam? Would spreading education, working with Muslim groups to speak out against radical Islam, and target terrorist cells be better in the long run?




Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Sometimes things are black and white. There is nothing “grey” about an army of men running toward you and your family to chop off your heads or evaporate you with a nuke.
Where are these armies running up to your family, where do you live? Who has a nuke? Come on, if you are going to prove to me life is black and white, use real examples.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:57 PM   #86
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BVS - You still haven't listed what you would fight for.

The militants are only being kept in check by the US and its allies' military and intillegence agencies. Otherwise, things would be far worse.

9-11 proved that our enemy is willing to kill innocent civilians. Not only willing, but actually targeting innocent civilians.

And if you don't think Islam isn't spreading like wildfire in Western Europe you need to do some quick Google searches.

Iraq is only a part of the global war. I agree it is being conducted like a soup sandwich, and we need to either step it up or get out.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:59 PM   #87
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the threat was intentionally overblown
Do you seriously think it is possible to overestimate Islamic extremists after 9-11?
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:00 PM   #88
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I would fight to throw invaders (occupying troops) out of my country.
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:07 PM   #89
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and everyone thanks you, and appreciates, the work you are putting in. but please keep in mind that there are many, many ways we can all participate.
I absolutely agree - I just listed a few examples. The police and firefighters that responded to the WTC and the Penteagon are prime examples of heroism. So is my wife - who is strong enough to run our family when I'm needed outside the country.

One day, when my infant son is enjoying the freedom to choose his religion, he will ask me what I did in the war - and I'll be able to answer proudly that our family responded to the call, like so many families before us; that our family understood that freedom sometimes requires sacrifice.
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:17 PM   #90
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Quote:
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Preventing radical Islam from taking over the world (and only a fool believes that is not their goal) is absolutely the right fight.
Then many people are fools. Most studies and Osama's own words point to the elimination of occupation of Muslim countries by the US, Israel, stop the proping up of brutal regimes (with oil) like the Saudis, and get US troops out of sacred lands.

Not excusing their action in any way! They

Read Professor Papes book on suicide bombing "Dying to Win". He has great statistical info.
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