The Path to 9/11 - docudrama or propaganda?

[A_Wanderer]

Islamic terrorism is like Bolshevism before it had a large state of it's own; but the oil price is seeing that turning around very rapidly.

 

[Irvine511]

Do you seriously think it is possible to overestimate Islamic extremists after 9-11?

yes. of course. what do you think Iraq was/is?

(and that's if we are to take Bush at his word that he was genuinely concerned that SH would give WMDs to terrorists).

 

[AEON]

Then many people are fools. Most studies and Osama's own words point to the elimination of occupation of Muslim countries by the US, Israel, stop the proping up of brutal regimes (with oil) like the Saudis, and get US troops out of sacred lands.
.

That is only a step in their overall goal. They have stated over and over that they want to convert the world.

 

[deep]

That is only a step in their overall goal. They have stated over and over that they want to convert the world.

So convert and live in peace my brother.


Think about it.

"There is no God but God"

What's wrong with that?

It fits well with the first few commandments.

If we all prayed five times a day.

We would have less time to sin.

 

[Scarletwine]

For tha last three centuries the white Europeans and Americans wanted to bring the poor brown and black peoples to the Christian God.

That may be the goal in most religions. That doesn't mean violence. You can't bring a heart to God at the point of a gun, no more than you can bring democracy.

 

[trevster2k]

I'm watching The Secret History of 9/11 on CBC Newsworld right now. A CBC produced documentary about the events leading up to 9/11. It starts off detailing the first attack on the WTC. Looks interesting so far. A written transcript is on the website.

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/secrethistory/

 

[BVS]

BVS - You still haven't listed what you would fight for.

The militants are only being kept in check by the US and its allies' military and intillegence agencies. Otherwise, things would be far worse.

9-11 proved that our enemy is willing to kill innocent civilians. Not only willing, but actually targeting innocent civilians.

And if you don't think Islam isn't spreading like wildfire in Western Europe you need to do some quick Google searches.

Iraq is only a part of the global war. I agree it is being conducted like a soup sandwich, and we need to either step it up or get out.

I'm not sure why this list is so important to you. It really has nothing to do with this discussion, but it's probably pretty similar to your list, which I really don't care for. What matters is the means in which we think this fight should be fought.

The rest of your post is saying the same rhetoric over and over and ignores my post. But I will agree that it's spreading like wildfire and I think a lot of it has to do with how we are fighting this fight.

 

[AEON]

I'm not sure why this list is so important to you. It really has nothing to do with this discussion, but it's probably pretty similar to your list, which I really don't care for.

I'm confused - you say you don't care for my list of things worth fighting for, but then you say your list is probably the same as mine...

Is it really that difficult to write down a few things that you would be willing to fight or even die for?

 

[Westport]

I absolutely agree - I just listed a few examples. The police and firefighters that responded to the WTC and the Penteagon are prime examples of heroism. So is my wife - who is strong enough to run our family when I'm needed outside the country.

One day, when my infant son is enjoying the freedom to choose his religion, he will ask me what I did in the war - and I'll be able to answer proudly that our family responded to the call, like so many families before us; that our family understood that freedom sometimes requires sacrifice.

Your commitment to our freedom is very much appreciated in my household of six.

We all thank you. Thank you.

Godspeed.

 

[BVS]

I'm confused - you say you don't care for my list of things worth fighting for, but then you say your list is probably the same as mine...

Is it really that difficult to write down a few things that you would be willing to fight or even die for?

When I said, "don't care for", I meant I don't need to see. My wording was bad.

It's very similar to Irvine's other thread, which I would hope most American's list are similar, that why I said what I did.

I knew if I had made a specific you would find a way to twist my words and frankly I'm tired of that and didn't want to deal with it.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The question isn't what you are willing to die for, it is what you are willing to kill for.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Qutb on Jazz

... a type of music invented by Blacks to please their primitive tendencies - their desire for noise and their appetite for sexual arousal...

Dickhead.

 

[Irvine511]

Qutb on JazzDickhead.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Sayed Qutb, the point of the previous part was in fact the mindset of Islamic extremists why not go straight to the source. Music seems to invoke sinfulness to believers (much like footloose) and gets banned, frankly I find such considerations to be somewhat anti-human.

 

[AEON]

When I said, "don't care for", I meant I don't need to see. My wording was bad.

It's very similar to Irvine's other thread, which I would hope most American's list are similar, that why I said what I did.

I knew if I had made a specific you would find a way to twist my words and frankly I'm tired of that and didn't want to deal with it.

Yeah. I guess I wouldn't want to see you in a position where you must take your posts to their logical conclusion:

A - is something I hold dear
B - I will fight to protect "A" if "A" is attacked

If you admit "A" is under attack, you must commit to "B" - fight to protect "A"

 

[BVS]

Yeah. I guess I wouldn't want to see you in a position where you must take your posts to their logical conclusion:

A - is something I hold dear
B - I will fight to protect "A" if "A" is attacked

If you admit "A" is under attack, you must commit to "B" - fight to protect "A"

Once again my point has flown past you by miles.

 

[AEON]

Once again my point has flown past you by miles.

How so? What IS your point?

Man, trying to understand what you are trying to say in this thread is like figuring out the clues in the "Name of the Rose."

 

[BVS]

How so? What IS your point?

Man, trying to understand what you are trying to say in this thread is like figuring out the clues in the "Name of the Rose."

With your last post you were trying to back me in the corner with your black and white logic.

If you admit "A" is under attack, you must commit to "B" - fight to protect "A"

But you only see one way to fight, I don't. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

 

[AEON]

1. i don't think this is a meaningful question -- "stopped" isn't the correct word, perhaps "rendered irrelevant" or "strip it of it's seductive power." this is achieved through a variety of responses, the most meaningful of which would be to first address the Israel/Palestinian issue.

2. see above.

3. i am willing to provide our intelligence forces with all the tools they need, withing the boundaries of the Constitution and International Law, to effectively track and destroy certain terrorist ringleaders and i am willing to sacrafice a minimum of personal liberty in order to better ensure my own safety, to a degree. i do not think that the invasion of countries that have nothing to do with Islamic extremism makes us safer, in fact it makes us less so.

i also reject the questions you've laid out at the end of the question -- you're making the assumption that i'm making the assumption that Islamic extremism will magically disappear if we pull out of Iraq and free everyone from Gitmo. i don't. but i think a tenable resolution to Iraq is critical (we never should have ever been there) combined with what must be seen as fair legal proceedings for those who are in Gitmo is crucial to restoring America's standing in the world.

but, mostly, i think one of the best things we can do to combat the radicalization of much of the Muslmi world would be to get a brand new commander-in-chief who'll tone down the cowboy rhetoric, admit mistakes and work to rectify them, aggressively pursue the tiny minority of truly lethal radicals and their financers, and restore the respect once accorded to the US in both the Muslim world and in the minds of our allies.

Actually Irvine, I agree with most of what you've posted here. Thanks for answering the questions.

Howevere, I don't quite know what "addressing" the Israel/Palestinian issue means. As far many are concerned, there is no solution until Israel is wiped off the map. We have been "addressing" this issues since 1947, nothing has really worked so far.

 

[AEON]

With your last post you were trying to back me in the corner with your black and white logic.



But you only see one way to fight, I don't. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

Fair enough. How would you fight the global war on terror?

 

[BVS]

Fair enough. How would you fight the global war on terror?

Let's see, I would have stuck to one issue at the time, Afghanistan, sent the troops and resources needed. I would have also used all resources we had to work with Muslim leaders globally to speak out against radical islamism. Worked with global leaders to get education, electricity, the economy etc... up and running. That's where I'd start.

 

[Scarletwine]

Howevere, I don't quite know what "addressing" the Israel/Palestinian issue means. As far many are concerned, there is no solution until Israel is wiped off the map. We have been "addressing" this issues since 1947, nothing has really worked so far.

The US along with others must enforce the UN resolutions (44?) of the movement of Israel to it's 1967 borders and to be a real honest broker. If they do not comply sanctions and loss of $$ from the US should follow. The current occupation and aparthied situation on Israel and Palestinian territories is the main cause of most of the problems in the ME over the last couple of decades.
The WALL should also be dismantled as it makes possible for Israeli land grabs.

Don't accuse me of any anti-Semitism. I am not. Israel is a state not a religion nor people. There are many in Israel that believe the above.

 

[AEON]

Let's see, I would have stuck to one issue at the time, Afghanistan, sent the troops and resources needed.

So you do support the use of military force in Afghanistan. We agree on something

I wonder if we agree on the reason as to why our forces are there. Why do you support our mission there? Is it to remove the Taliban, get UBL, build a democracy? Did you consider the nation of Afghanistan a direct threat?

If other countries fit into the "Afghanistan" mold - would you then support their invasion as well?

 

[Irvine511]

Howevere, I don't quite know what "addressing" the Israel/Palestinian issue means. As far many are concerned, there is no solution until Israel is wiped off the map. We have been "addressing" this issues since 1947, nothing has really worked so far.

a two-state solution seems the only possible answer, though how that is accomplished is another question.

but that is the goal. there has to be concessions on both sides. Palestinans (and, by extention, the Arab world) must recognize Israel and understand that they aren't going anywhere, and Israelis must understand that occupation, any occupation, is precisely what breeds terrorists.

 

[BVS]

So you do support the use of military force in Afghanistan. We agree on something

If you weren't so busy twisting words and attacking the left, you would have known this 5 pages ago.

I wonder if we agree on the reason as to why our forces are there. Why do you support our mission there? Is it to remove the Taliban, get UBL, build a democracy? Did you consider the nation of Afghanistan a direct threat?

I support the removal of the Taliban. Nation building is a sticky issue, I don't think you can force Democracies on people. Just looking at Iraq and you can see the dangers of "spreading democracy".

 

[AEON]

I support the removal of the Taliban.

Would you support the removal of ANY regime that is a threat to the US or an ally? Let's say that one of the largest armies in the world threatened to "Wipe Israel off the face of the map."

 

[Scarletwine]

There have been scholars that say Ahmadinajen(?) speech was mistranslated. he wants Zionism gone not the state of Israel.

 

[AEON]

Quotes from Saddam and Iraq's regime-controlled media


Iraq Masses Troops Against Kuwait, October 1994
"Does [America] realize the meaning of every Iraqi becoming a missile that can cross to countries and cities?"
Saddam Hussein, September 29, 1994

"[W]hen peoples reach the verge of collective death, they will be able to spread death to all..."
Al-Jumhuriyah, October 4, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)

"[O]ur striking arm will reach [America, Britain and Saudi Arabia] before they know what hit them."
Al-Qadisiyah, October 6, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)

"One chemical weapon fired in a moment of despair could cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands." Al-Quds al-Arabi, October 12, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)

Release of UNSCOM Report, April 10, 1995

"Although Iraq's options are limited, they exist...Iraq's present state is that of a wounded tiger. Its blow could be painful, even if it is the last blow..."
Al-Quds Al-'Arabi, June 9, 1995 (State-controlled newspaper)

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996
"[The U.S.] should send more coffins to Saudi Arabia, because no one can guess what the future has in store."
Saddam Hussein, Iraqi Radio, June 27, 1996

Operation Desert Fox, December 1998

"If [other Arab nations] persist on pursuing their wrongful path, then we should — or rather we must — place the swords of jihad on their necks..."
Saddam Hussein, January 5, 1999

"Oh sons of Arabs and the Arab Gulf, rebel against the foreigner...Take revenge for your dignity, holy places, security, interests and exalted values."
Saddam Hussein, January 5, 1999



"[Saudi Arabian and Kuwaiti] blood will light torches, grow aromatic plants, and water the tree of freedom, resistance and victory."
Saddam Hussein, Iraqi Radio, January 26, 1999

"Whoever continues to be involved in a despicable aggressive war against the people of Iraq as a subservient party must realize that this aggressive act has a dear price."
Saddam Hussein, February 16, 1999

"What is required now is to deal strong blows to U.S. and British interests. These blows should be strong enough to make them feel that their interests are indeed threatened not only by words but also in deeds."
Al-Qadisiyah, February 27, 1999 (State-controlled newspaper)

U.S.S. Cole Bombing, October 12, 2000

"[Iraqis] should intensify struggle and jihad in all fields and by all means..."
Iraq TV, October 22, 2000 (State-controlled)

The Attacks of September 11

"The United States reaps the thorns its rulers have planted in the world."
Saddam Hussein, September 12, 2001

"The real perpetrators [of September 11] are within the collapsed buildings."
Alif-Ba, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

"[September 11 was] God's punishment."
Al-Iktisadi, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

"If the attacks of September 11 cost the lives of 3,000 civilians, how much will the size of losses in 50 states within 100 cities if it were attacked in the same way in which New York and Washington were? What would happen if hundreds of planes attacked American cities?"
Al-Rafidayn, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

"The simple truth [about September 11] is that America burned itself and now tries to burn the world."
Alif-Ba, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled magazine)

"t is possible to turn to biological attack, where a small can, not bigger than the size of a hand, can be used to release viruses that affect everything..."
Babil, September 20, 2001 (State-controlled newspaper)

"The United States must get a taste of its own poison..."
Babil, October 8, 2001

 

[AEON]

There have been scholars that say Ahmadinajen(?) speech was mistranslated. he wants Zionism gone not the state of Israel.

from Al Jazeera:

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.

But it doesn't stop there:

"Anyone who signs a treaty which recognises the entity of Israel means he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world," Ahmadinejad said.

"Any leaders in the Islamic umma who recognise Israel face the wrath of their own people."

Al Jazeera quotes Iranian President

 

[Scarletwine]

Lot of good we've done. Looks like Bush and the Saudi Prince.


Juan Cole translated it differently. I've seen it both ways.
Saddam had no ability to deliver of his threats.