The Passion

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bonosloveslave said:
Many people use these things in an attempt to evangelize:

"Why the heck are you wearing a NAIL around your neck? :eyebrow: " - opens the conversation to talk about X - the movie and how you were affected by it, your personal relationship with Christ, whatever.

*makes mental note not to inquire about why a person is wearing a nail around their neck*

:wink: :)
 
Ahh yes, the selling of The Passion. Also a pet peeve of mine I guess you might say. If its not enough that we can't just let the film be a film, if its compelling then let it speak . . . but of course let's try some marketing ploys. Let's sell trinkets of a horrific death and maybe a board game for my kids.

This is an excerpt from an article I read, I feel similar to this........

"Speaking of agendas, it?s fascinating to me to see the groundswell of activity surrounding this film. Not only are we slapping up posters and buying tickets like crazy, we?re turning the film into the centerpiece of a whole evangelistic campaign. At thepassionoutreach.com, the main banner proclaims, ?Perhaps the best outreach opportunity in 2000 years.? Can?t think of your own way to respond to (or ride) the film?s popularity? No problem. The site gives you 13 pre-packaged ideas?everything from a suggested sermon series, to a saturation mailing. In Canada, you can even go to Passion training?sessions where you?ll learn to share your personal testimony in 3 minutes.
"On the one hand, I applaud the church?s enthusiasm. After years of opposing popular culture and non-traditional art forms, I?m encouraged that we?re moving forward. I?m pleased to see that we?re attempting to address culture in the movie house, not just the ?house of the Lord.? At the same time, however, I?m nervous that we?re attempting to shrink wrap the gospel and turn art?Mel Gibson?s personal vision of the crucifixion of Christ--into something it was never meant to be: propaganda.

The Passion booklets, The Passion-themed Bibles, The Passion jewelry?it just goes on and on. Churches have developed ads to air before the film. Little spots that say, ?See the movie then come join us on Sunday.? No offense, but I don?t particularly like seeing commercials for Chrysler before a movie, let alone commercials for Christ. I don?t want to get a tract on my way out of the theater nor do I want some stranger to shake my hand and pretend to be my best friend. Thanks but no thanks, and I?m a Christian!

The church marketing machine is strong. (Been to a Christian bookstore lately?) We can do bracelets, mugs and T-shirts with the best of them. But is it right? Are we interested in engaging with culture, or simply trying to convert people? When we invite friends to see the movie, will we feel that our night was a waste if we don?t get a chance to share The Four Laws? Is our agenda to buy people tickets so that the whole night feels like an awkward first date?you know, the ?Well, he bought me dinner so I guess I have to kiss him,? scenario? Are we interested in people?s honest questions about the film, or only their response to the film (i.e. did they pray the prayer)?

My sense is that all our enthusiasm could actually backfire and keep people away from what may or may not be a great film. At the same time, however, all our efforts will no doubt demand a payoff. You just know that elders somewhere are going to be counting how many people attend post-February 25 services and trying to calculate how many people came to Christ because of this film."
 
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A Passion for Hatred That Mocks Christ's Message

Robert Scheer writes a weekly column for The Times.

March 2, 2004

It took me a while to realize what they were saying. "You kilt our Lord," the guys looking for a fight would snarl, just before landing a punch on my nose. This was in the New York City of my childhood, where the accents were heavy and the theology more than a bit crude when you wandered into the wrong neighborhood.

When I finally got the drift of what the true-believer hoodlums were saying, I was tempted to utter in plaintive defense, "No, only half of me did it!" ? meaning that my father was born in Germany and raised Protestant. But my father would have taken his belt to me had I employed that cop-out because of his intense shame over the genocide perpetrated by his Christian countrymen against my Jewish mother's people in Eastern Europe.

As opposed to Mel Gibson's father, mine never underestimated the horror of the Holocaust. Nor do my Christian relatives in Germany, who have underscored the depth of wartime Germany's depravity by pointing out to me that the local minister had been one of the town's leading Nazi enthusiasts, even wearing his Nazi uniform under his clerical garb.

Old wounds, I know, but I just saw Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" and it is a blood libel against the Jewish people that should have every prominent Christian minister and priest speaking out in opposition. All they have to do is look to the pope's apology for the Catholic Church's sins against Jews.

It requires a deeply felt anti-Semitism on Gibson's part to depict the community that nurtured Jesus as nothing more than a venal mob that forced an eminently reasonable and kind Roman overlord to crucify Jesus. Even the beastly lower-level Roman legionnaires who whip Jesus for most of the movie's duration are engaged in this orgy of sadism not to please Caesar but rather to mollify the rabbis.

Of course, the movie should not be censored, nor can it be totally dismissed.

I found it useful to be reminded of the suffering that Christ endured for his convictions, and even the sadomasochistic preoccupation of the film could not obscure the fact that Christ never endorsed vengeance or departed from his message of universal love. Ultimately, however, this is just an exploitation flick that serves up the body of Christ as an object of continuous sick torture while ignoring his life and thoughts.

As soon as I got home from the movie theater, I opened my King James version of the Bible, one that has the statements directly attributable to Jesus conveniently printed in red type. Opening it at random, I read in the Gospel according to St. Matthew a clear reassurance that Gibson has it all wrong: When Christ "opened his mouth," which he rarely does in the movie, he told his disciples all of those things that super-militant Christians who seek to divide us never want to hear: "Blessed are the poor ?. Blessed are the meek ?. Blessed are the merciful ?. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

That's the Jesus we need in our lives, and I say this as one who self-identifies very much as a Jew. But I am as uncomfortable with the dogmatists of Jewish theology as I am with all others this side of the deism or Unitarianism that commonly marked the philosophies of a number of leading authors of our Constitution.

Religious mythology of all sorts is valuable when it informs and enlightens rather than seeks to displace scientific and other rational thought.

Admittedly, I am not in Gibson's target audience, and I do not begrudge others finding solace and meaning in the scriptures of their choice. What I fear is hatred spawned of religious fundamentalism, the same type that tore apart the world of my childhood and continues to be an enormous producer of pain, warfare and division. Despite our pretensions of modernity and humanitarianism, the world is currently plagued by Christian, Jewish, Islamic and Hindu fundamentalists who seem more passionate about employing their holy books as weapons than as instruments of peace.

Sadly, that is the essence of Gibson's movie. But the good news is that the actual words of Christ that have been passed down to us do not lend themselves to such a mean-spirited enterprise.
 
I really wish I hadn't read those bloopers now. :uhoh: I want to go see the movie again, but now I might think of the bloopers and start laughing. :shocked:

The lightening strike is the funniest.... almost like saying enough with the fooling around !
 
I saw this review in the Toronto Star which I think is excellent. I don't think it has been posted, I haven't read all 14 pages of this thread.

I have not seen the film and I was debating it. However, after reading this, I don't think I will.

From the Toronto Star:
Gibson's Passion exploits believers

PETER HOWELL

The pious and the profane are both taking credit for the stunning success of Mel Gibson's The Passion Of The Christ, and I find it unsettling.

Even more unsettling than the movie itself, which frankly appalled me. The Passion is a two-hour snuff film, the spectacle of a man being brutally murdered in a public arena, created for the satisfaction of popcorn-chewing voyeurs. I consider it artless and pointless, although I don't doubt the sincerity of Gibson's misguided motivations for making it. I thought it should have been titled Gladiator 2: The Sadist's Cut.

I don't shrink at the sight of blood and gore. I'm used to seeing gratuitous violence on the screen, and some of it I actually defend. Any movie critic or regular film-festival attendee witnesses more murders, rapes and pillages in the average year than the citizens of Sodom or Gomorrah.

In recent months, we've seen the dice-o-matic swordplay of Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill Vol. 1 (and how will Vol. 2 ever top the beheading scene?) and the ridiculously bloody remake of Tobe Hooper's 1974 cult-horror artefact The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

We've also seen Gaspar No?'s Irr?versible, in which a woman is sickeningly raped in real time, while the unblinking camera stares. The woman's boyfriend seeks revenge by killing a man in a club whom he believes is the rapist. He bludgeons the man into hamburger with a fire extinguisher.

Some of this can be justified in artistic terms, as indeed No? attempted to with his weak "time destroys everything" argument about the inevitability of human brutality. There's also the standard "it's only a movie" line: People watch things they would never consider doing themselves, and in so doing purge their darkest fears and instincts. In most cases, though, it's really more about making money than about making art.

But the big difference between The Passion and other violent films is that Gibson's film is being sold as a religious experience, thanks in large part to the gullible assistance of many priests, ministers and other Christian leaders. By subjecting ourselves to the real-time horror of Christ's degradation and destruction, their argument goes, we can better understand what He went through to save and redeem us.

In return for our willing participation in Christ's torture, we are supposed to feel closer to Him and His teachings.

Even though these same teachings get scant treatment in Gibson's film, as does the Resurrection, which is presented almost as an afterthought just before the credits roll on the bloody mess.

So intent are religious leaders to spread the Gospel According To Gibson, they have been using their church pulpits to promote The Passion. Indeed, movie marketers are already marvelling at how the film managed to earn a stunning $135.3 million (U.S.) through its first six days of release, despite a relatively modest TV advertising campaign, competition from Oscar films and the hindrance of subtitles.

In less than a week, it surpassed the $128.1 million earned by Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon for its entire run.

It's also smashed Crouching Tiger's 2000-2001 run's record as the most successful foreign-language film ever to hit North America.

But that's not hard to do, when you have respected church figures acting as unpaid pitchmen, and reaching deep into congregations that might not normally ever darken a multiplex or scan a movie listing.

What really disturbs me about this is the hypocrisy of the whole thing. Many of the same church elders who routinely preach against violence in the media, wringing their hands over Kill Bill or assailing the realistic mayhem of video games, apparently find no contradiction in endorsing a movie where the beat goes on right up to and past the point of a man's horrific death.

Gibson's pious apologists reason it's not just acceptable but downright essential to stare at Christ's suffering, because it's a redemptive experience presented just as the Bible describes it ? even though all kinds of Bible scholars have stepped forward to dispute The Passion's claim to authenticity.

How far would they be willing to take this thinking? If it is indeed healthy for the masses to share Christ's pain in the most realistic Hollywood manner, then wouldn't we also profit by communing through other big-screen exploitations of ghastly experiences?

How about an IMAX movie about the Holocaust, in which we can fully engage with the atrocities committed in the Nazi death camps and gas chambers? How about biopics on Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy, in which every one of their victims are violated, murdered and consumed before our greedy eyeballs? Perhaps only by witnessing evil acts in the most intense way possible can we fully understand the pain of victims.

Such an argument is absurd, of course, yet it is being promoted as justification for the masses who are marching off to see The Passion . It's strange how when Osama bin Laden promotes murder as a means to enhance spirituality, he is reviled for it. But when Christians rally at the multiplex to relive Christ's killing, they pat themselves on the back for having lived their faith.

You can be sure it won't stop with The Passion, either. Now that the Hollywood moneymen have seen how much dough is to be made by feeding raw violence to the gullible in the name of religious intensity, they'll be tearing the Bible apart for similar stories of man's inhumanity to man. And all other movies will also crank up the carnage, now that it's been proved that even churches aren't bothered by it.

And if Hollywood goes a little overboard, who cares? Surely no righteous moral figure can now bleat about film violence with a straight face, now that The Passion has passed muster.

I figure Quentin Tarantino should launch Kill Bill Vol. 2 in as many churches as he can round up. His bloodthirsty audience awaits.
 
Blacksword said:
What were your particular reasons for leaving?

my short answer

which will probably require more explanation

is that i would not subject myself to the unnecessary graphic violence and,

in my opinion, Gibson's bias, I saw much anti-Semitism.


each of us (may) have our own personal relationship with the story of Jesus.

I will not cheapen mine with Gibson's heinous, bias, perverted depiction.
 
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deep said:
Well, I went to the movie.

I had to leave after about the first hour.



I can not reccomend this to anyone.


I wasn't going to see the movie but some friends invited me with the idea that we'd discuss the film afterwards. So I went.

I have to say I agree with you, deep, I wouldn't recommend the movie to anyone, particularly those feel that the movie might be too gory. It is.

The violence was way overdone. To what extent does one have to flay Jesus to make a point? I turned my eyes away at certain points in the movie. I suppose Gibson's idea was to appeal to our baser instincts. His understanding of the Passion is odd, to put it lightly.

On another note, I feel Gibson fell short in his storytelling. To me this screenplay consisted of a middle and an end, no beginning.
 
pub crawler said:
To what extent does one have to flay Jesus to make a point?

I think it's meant to show Christians how we often take for granted the physical suffering Jesus endured on our behalf.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


I think it's meant to show Christians how we often take for granted the physical suffering Jesus endured on our behalf.

What I find is interesting, and I'm just thinking out loud here, is that yes while Jesus was human he suffered a great deal of physical suffering but it wasn't the most that any human has suffered. Why focus on that? Yes it was horrific, but Jesus had something we will never have(well he a lot that we will never have as humans) he had knowledge of what heaven was like. Something we can only imagine. Plus he had the knowledge that he was doing this for the sake of mankind and he knew he'd be resurected and then ascend. Not that this cheapens his sacrifice in any way. Any other human going through this wouldn't have this. I believe it to be an integral part of the story, but by no means the focus. I haven't seen the film yet and I'm not sure I will, although my curiosity may get the better of me. But there is so much more to the story to focus on, I can think of ten other items I'd rather see focused on than this. This to me doesn't encompass his life, it doesn't shed light on his teachings, and it doesn't even begin to show why people should turn to this faith. And maybe Gibson didn't want any of that, and that's cool, in fact I don't have that big of a problem with Gibson as much as I do the Church's around the world embracing this film as a witness tool. That I just don't get.

On a side note ever since I was young I always thought it would be cool to see a really well done picture of what would happen if Christ came today instead of then type of picture. I've been writing one for the last 5 years of so off and on, I don't know if I'll ever finish. It may be too arrogant of me to think my interpretation should ever see the light or would have an impact, but it's been fun and very enlightening to work on such a project. I've had some very positive feed back from friends, pastors, etc both conservative and liberal on the project, but by no means would I ever think my interpretation be taken any better than Gibson's. When you try and tackle a subject such as this you are going to get flak no matter what. The only such film that took place so far that I know of like this was called the 'The Judas Project' and it was horrible. It didn't make sence, it did the same exact story but with modern day settings. The disciples were fishermen but they drove Suburbans, he was still nailed alive to a cross like object, and it was very unclear as to who was really "after" him. It was poor.

Anyways I'm rambling. Basically what I'm trying to get at is that it's just a movie. I think it's good that it's striking up discussions, but I'm sickened by the fact that "the church" has embrassed it the way it did. This move just pushes me even further from the idea of organized religion...they just seem so desperate to make Jesus pop culture.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


I think it's meant to show Christians how we often take for granted the physical suffering Jesus endured on our behalf.

I'm sure that's what Gibson was after. I think he went too far. I don't need to see skin hanging off of Jesus' torso to get the point. I don't need to hear the cracking sound of his wrists being broken to get the point. I don't even need to see the spikes driven through his hands and feet with a large wooden mallet to get the point. Gibson could have made the film half as violent (or half as graphic) and I would have gotten the point. And it would have been more watchable. I'd still need more context than the screenplay allows, but it would have been more watchable.

As it stands, in my opinion the pictures Gibson gives us in The Passion of The Christ are grotesque and repulsive -- and not because of Christ's suffering, but rather because of Gibson's filmmaking. The way Gibson tells this story says a lot about his psyche and who he is as a person.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


I think it's meant to show Christians how we often take for granted the physical suffering Jesus endured on our behalf.

We can get that by contemplating Christ's Passion on our own. We don't have to see a graphic movie to recognize that crucifixion was an unbelievably brutal act. This form of punishment originated in Persia, and was used rather frequently by the Romans. I'm a really squeamish person. I don't think I need to watch ten-minute torture sequences to get some sort of understanding of what He went through for us. In the Catholic Church, the devotion of the Stations of the Cross is remembrance of Christ's Passion. Perhaps some people feel like they want to make Christ's suffering more real for them by seeing this movie. Fine. Just don't tell me my practice of my faith is somehow devalued by not seeing this movie. It's only a movie.
 
verte76 said:


We can get that by contemplating Christ's Passion on our own. We don't have to see a graphic movie to recognize that crucifixion was an unbelievably brutal act. This form of punishment originated in Persia, and was used rather frequently by the Romans. I'm a really squeamish person. I don't think I need to watch ten-minute torture sequences to get some sort of understanding of what He went through for us. In the Catholic Church, the devotion of the Stations of the Cross is remembrance of Christ's Passion. Perhaps some people feel like they want to make Christ's suffering more real for them by seeing this movie. Fine. Just don't tell me my practice of my faith is somehow devalued by not seeing this movie. It's only a movie.

This is exactly the response I was trying to come up with but verte said it perfectly.

I understand that some people have been moved deeply by this movie and I'm glad for them but I won't be seeing it.
 
verte76 said:


We can get that by contemplating Christ's Passion on our own. We don't have to see a graphic movie to recognize that crucifixion was an unbelievably brutal act. ... It's only a movie.

Yeah, I know, I'm not saying your a bad Christian for not wanting to see it, but for some people (like me) it's a real eye-opener. I have a hard time just imagining things with no visual to contemplate and I think something that's THIS important to me, it was a good experience to now at least have SOME idea of the pain and brutality.

You can compare it to the AIDS in Africa issue: I've been active about this for a while, and it's been a real passion of mine, but it wasn't until I actually met an African woman with HIV who's baby boy and husband had died of HIV that I really understood and felt the issue in my heart. Like Gibson's Passion is HIS interpretation, meeting ONE person with HIV is just ONE scenario my mind/heart uses to represent the whole.

I dunno if that makes any sense at all....
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:
Yeah, I know, I'm not saying your a bad Christian for not wanting to see it, but for some people (like me) it's a real eye-opener. I have a hard time just imagining things with no visual to contemplate and I think something that's THIS important to me, it was a good experience to now at least have SOME idea of the pain and brutality.

You can compare it to the AIDS in Africa issue: I've been active about this for a while, and it's been a real passion of mine, but it wasn't until I actually met an African woman with HIV who's baby boy and husband had died of HIV that I really understood and felt the issue in my heart. Like Gibson's Passion is HIS interpretation, meeting ONE person with HIV is just ONE scenario my mind/heart uses to represent the whole.

I dunno if that makes any sense at all....

I think that makes perfect sense, LivLuv.

I do also see what BVS and verte are saying, too, though. I particularly agree with you guys about the way some religious people are embracing this movie.

Angela
 
Today I spoke to someone who saw the film with me and, for the sake of accuracy, I want to note the following: In the movie the soldiers didn't break Jesus' wrists (as I wrote in my last post in this thread); rather, they (apparently) broke his arms/and or pulled them from the shoulder joints (this was one of the moments in the movie where I was wincing and turning my eyes away from the screen while catching flickers of what was transpiring on screen. All I know is, I heard what sounded like bones snapping). Also, during the nailing of Jesus' hands and feet to the cross, you saw the swinging of the wooden mallet, the spikes, Jesus' hands and feet, and the freshly hammered spikes protruding from said hands and feet but it was cut so that you didn't actually see the spikes driven through flesh. Again, I was looking away because I didn't feel a need to see those portions of Gibson's base, sadistic vision.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


Yeah, I know, I'm not saying your a bad Christian for not wanting to see it, but for some people (like me) it's a real eye-opener. I have a hard time just imagining things with no visual to contemplate and I think something that's THIS important to me, it was a good experience to now at least have SOME idea of the pain and brutality.

You can compare it to the AIDS in Africa issue: I've been active about this for a while, and it's been a real passion of mine, but it wasn't until I actually met an African woman with HIV who's baby boy and husband had died of HIV that I really understood and felt the issue in my heart. Like Gibson's Passion is HIS interpretation, meeting ONE person with HIV is just ONE scenario my mind/heart uses to represent the whole.

I dunno if that makes any sense at all....

It does!! I understand that it makes the Passion more *real* for some people, and that's a good thing. I'm not "against" this movie in any way. I just felt like some people--not in this forum-- have treated this movie almost like it's a church service or whatever, as if you're missing something crucial in your Christian life if you don't see it. I don't think this is true.
 
Many of you may think Mel went over the top, but I would guess it still didn't show every horrible torture that happened. If you can't even bear to watch it, how many millions times worse must it have been to actually go through it? I felt that in some small way I was paying respect to what Christ went through by not turning away or walking out.
 
I don't know if I mentioned this, but I never winced once in the film. Have I grown desensitized to film violence? All I could do was admire the simulations of violence and gawk at the great makeup job they did. I also then wondered how I could set up a prop to spew blood the same way in a film of my own someday.

Melon
 
verte76 said:
I'm not "against" this movie in any way. I just felt like some people--not in this forum-- have treated this movie almost like it's a church service or whatever, as if you're missing something crucial in your Christian life if you don't see it. I don't think this is true.

I don't think so, either. Everybody should be able to decide to go or not go to a movie without getting flak for making said choice. You have your reasons. That's good enough.

Angela
 
bonosloveslave said:
Many of you may think Mel went over the top, but I would guess it still didn't show every horrible torture that happened. If you can't even bear to watch it, how many millions times worse must it have been to actually go through it? I felt that in some small way I was paying respect to what Christ went through by not turning away or walking out.

So should we start making snuff films documenting every gory detail of violent gay bashings, slave lynchings, document every painful procedure that an AIDS of cancer patient suffers for 5 years just to pay respect for these people's suffering? The torture had such a small role in Jesus life why are we making movies like this? Jesus was not the only person to go through this type of torture, in fact many men have suffered more, should we make films about them? Why focus on this? Now I'm not being cold about Christ's suffering, believe me I will never take that for granted, but what does one gain from this portrayal?
 
I don't think there's any way for us to really comprehend what Christ went through. It wasn't just physical; He took on the sin of the world, and all the emotional torment that meant. The movie focuses on the physical torment, which was enormous, but the Passion was so much more. It's a mystery. We'll never understand it. For some the movie makes it more real. I don't think God is asking us to get our nervous systems shot to bits when He asks that we acknowledge the suffering Christ went through. For this Catholic, the Stations of the Cross is really a better way to do this.
 
I saw this movie and liked it. Didn't feel there was any anti semitism only ignorance coming from the power mongers and the brutal Roman guards.
I saw alot of ugliness in this film displayed in herd/mob mentality.
Ironically I saw some Jewish heroes, namely Jesus, Mary and Mary M.

This was too much "over-kill"- no pun intended.

vince peal
 
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verte76 said:
I don't think there's any way for us to really comprehend what Christ went through. It wasn't just physical; He took on the sin of the world, and all the emotional torment that meant. The movie focuses on the physical torment, which was enormous, but the Passion was so much more. It's a mystery. We'll never understand it. For some the movie makes it more real. I don't think God is asking us to get our nervous systems shot to bits when He asks that we acknowledge the suffering Christ went through. For this Catholic, the Stations of the Cross is really a better way to do this.

:up: :yes: (besides the Catholic part since I'm not Catholic, sorry!)

I'm going to admit that I really only saw the movie b/c a) I wanted to see what all the talk was about b) my boyfriend's mother told him he had to go and he didn't want to go alone and c) I got a student rate ticket. Not that I wouldn't have seen it sooner or later, or didn't want to, but I wasn't planning on it at first.


There's one thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned yet here that my Rev. pointed out in a review he wrote: Did anyone else actually feel relieved when Jesus was put on the cross? Like the shouting and kicking and whipping would finally stop? Doesn't that kind of take away from the crucifiction part of the story where Jesus is calling out to God? I dunno, I admit I WAS relieved when they reached the top of the hill. :(
 
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