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Old 02-24-2004, 07:58 AM   #61
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The Old Testament is loosely historically accurate, mostly because it is oral tradition written down several hundred years after the fact...or so we believe. It is believed that the OT is of post-exilic origin, meaning that there is a good possibility that these texts were rewritten with an agenda:

1) To give them a distinct history, right or wrong.
2) To emphasize that there is only one God.
3) To emphasize that that "one God" gives direct authority through the Mosaic Law, and, indirectly, through the clerics that enforce "the law."

The third point is where I'm mostly concerned. With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we're already uncovering some inconsistencies in regards to the Mosaic Law, and, before we start deifying that canon simply because it is older, there is a very good possibility that there was no central OT canon, just as there was (and still is) no centralized Jewish faith. Thus, different sects had different canons, and wrote that canon to suit their agenda. In other words, it may all be less God and more human.

And I think that's where Jesus comes in. He ends up rejecting some major parts of the OT, causing enough of a stink that he ends up crucified. While the NT is unclear and, in some ways, is equally inaccurate (oral tradition written down 40-70 years after the fact), I think that is ultimately what Jesus came for: to point out the fact that much of the OT ran contrary to what God wanted.

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Old 02-24-2004, 08:06 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Here's an interesting article about the type of Catholicism that Mel practices

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...r_catholicism/
You know, leftist dissidents in the Catholic Church get pissed on, but right-wing dissidents? The Vatican is painfully silent, but, since it is noted that much of the Pope's inner circle is part of the fanatical "Opus Dei" cult, that explains the hypocrisy.

Here's a good link about Opus Dei: http://www.odan.org/

And, funny enough, the site has something to say about Opus Dei's involvement and support for the film.

http://www.odan.org/media_passion.htm

And here's a good link about the group in general:

http://www.odan.org/GQarticle.pdf

Ultimately, I'm speechless that my former religion is being run by nuts...

Melon
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Old 02-24-2004, 09:57 AM   #63
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You can't be surprised though melon. The lines of faith and fact are blurred in every day life, in many people's faith. It is not a problem until you become a leader of an institution of which a billion odd people follow. Ego and power. Imagine the position these men are in. To feel you are that close to God Himself. I'd find it incredibly hard to believe power and ego are not an issue. This has nothing to do with the topic however.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:57 AM   #64
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Just wanted to say that I posted the link to that article only as a *possible* bit of insight into how Mel thinks and believes, that's all

Anyway..the more I hear about this movie the less I want to see it. Of course I still do want to be able to come to my own conclusions about it, but I understand why he claims he made it so violent, but I don't want to sit through a movie that I am physically unable to look at . I understand obviously what Jesus endured, and certainly I should also be able to endure a depiction of it..but I have serious questions re if the depiction is that way to make the Jewish people look more violent

And why treat the resurrection as some sort of an afterthought? After reading this review and opinions here..

http://www.boston.com/ae/

This part of the review stands out in my mind

We've heard some of Christ's Sermon on the Mount by then, and his exhortation to the disciples to love one another "as I have loved you." But the naked, risen Jesus who strides forth from the tomb in the last shot of the film, to the solemn thrum of martial music, does not seem very interested in love. Why should he be? He's off to war.

Certainly that's one critic's take on it, but I think it's thought provoking. I sure wish Mel would have made a powerful film about Jesus' life, and I have questions in my mind about the possible reasons why he didn't.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:28 AM   #65
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I have had trouble with Catholics who reject Vatican II. Last year a listserver of "traditionalist" Catholics started sending me notes without me even knowing that they were doing it. I still don't know how they got my e-mail address. It was really heavy-volume, something like 30 + e-mails a day. I was annoyed, and was successful in getting the mails stopped. They were spewing hate towards Catholics like myself who accept Vatican II's teachings. This stuff is disturbing, to say the least. This is why I'm not a huge fan of Mel's. These people really scare and disgust me.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:56 PM   #66
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I am interested in seeing this movie, but remember - it is a movie. Gibson could have made any movie he wanted and did.

heck - I could make a movie showing Buddha killing Jesus - it would still just be a movie...
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:12 PM   #67
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There were a number of showings last night, both locally and across the country. Many of the viewers who were interviewed as they left the theater could do little more than cry. It must be a powerful movie.
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:21 PM   #68
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See the thing that boggles my mind about the Vatican II rejectors is that they seem to belive that teh Catholic Church was uniform and uttterly the same up until that date.

Quote:
For 1,950 years [the church] does one thing and then in the 60s, all of a sudden they turn everything inside out and begin to do strange things that go against the rules Everything that had been heresy is no longer heresy, according to the [new] rules.
- Mel Gibson

That statement is utter bullshit. The Catholic Church has changed at innumerable points in history. The Bishops of Rome didn't gain ascendency in Wester Europe until the 5th Centruy mainly throught the brillance and vitality of men like Leo the Great. But the Pope didn't become the absolute authority in the Church until the 11th Century with the reforms of Gregory the Great and his successors. For much of the Church's early history, past the 5th Century, all matters of doctrine were decided by church councils of Bishops from all over Christendom (and conciliarism is scriptural as from Acts we see that the earliest matters of doctrine were decided by a council based in Jerusalem with James, not Peter at its head). The universal Catholic Church underwent an East West split over a period of 500 years, at earlier dates the definitionof Catholic would have meant all of the areas which would subsequenly be referred to as Orthodox. The Veneration of the Virgin Mary didn't become a practice of the ROman Church until the 11th and 12th Century due largely to the theology of one man. And this was due to the Medieval Catholic's deemphasis of Christ's humanity , such that humans needed an interecessor to their intercessor. The Counter-Reformation in response to Protestantism changed teh Catholic Church quite dramatically. Then First Vatican Council in the middle of 19th century caused further changes with the institutions of such controversial docrines as Papal infallibility. Vatican II was just another bump along the road.

And Gibson's idea that Vatican II is responible for the outbreak of pedophilia charges in the last few decades is absurd. A sizable majority of priests involved were trained prior to Vatican II (one should read how priests used to be trained) and those covering it up, the Bishops certainly were. Many of the cases date back to the 60's and 70's and one can hardly say that Vatican II in less than a deade turned all those priests into pedophiles. It used to happen all the time back inthe 40's and 50's just that no one talked about it. Adults in their Fifties and Sixties have been comming forward in droves and telling their tales. Not only are the Vatican II deniers ignorant of Church history but they're also delusional, or atleast Mel is.

Though from that article (made up of cut up quotes out of context as it is) I don't get the impression that Mel's anti-Semetic. Just very protective of his father.

I find your thoery interesting Melon. Though I wouldn't go quite as far as I think you are going. Personal interest is defintely a factor but i do find it a flaw in many modern historians that they can't seem to believe people could do things out of majority faith faith reasons. The cynecism over the personal interest by religious figures goes a bit too far. Living in a secular Many people simply cannot belive that people could have believed so sincerely as to put their personal agenda aside for their God (or dieties). I feel a healthy dose of scepticism is useful but it often goes much to far. This doesn't bar out abuses of the truth or the furtherance of an agenda (Gregory the Great, had no designs on secular power as he belived it to be beneath him - he was quite puzzled and offended when people accused him of wanting to be a king or emperor- but anyone who doesn't believe he had a single all consuming agenda is nuts), yet to put it awkwardly I think we should have a bit more faith in our ancestors faith.
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:40 PM   #69
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All I want to see about this film is I seriously question Mel Gibsons motives for making it!I won;t bother to elabarote you should be able to figure this out!!!!
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:54 PM   #70
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Blacksword, you're right, the claim of Gibson and others that the Church didn't change for all of those centuries is not true. I remember one "traditionalist" making the most ridiculous claim. She told me about a trashy history book which was approved for publication by some pope in the nineteenth century. She believed this was sufficient ground for the book to be an accurate depiction of history. I don't remember anything about the book except that I knew it was trashy anti-Protestant propaganda. This happened years ago. I remember the incident because it was really shocking to me how ignorant some people are. These people blame the priest shortage and every other problem in the Church on Vatican II and the "Novo Ordo" mass. It's ludicrous. Needless to say it's disgusting to read junk spewing hate on your own faith community, the post Vatican II Catholic Church. All of this stuff gets under my skin.
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Old 02-24-2004, 03:43 PM   #71
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What people like Mel Gibson forget is that Latin was introduced into masses, because it was the language of the people (Roman Empire). Before then, the people of the empire were complaining that all masses were done in Greek!

Gibson is guilty of sheer romanticism. He's living in a history that plain never existed.

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Old 02-24-2004, 03:44 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
There were a number of showings last night, both locally and across the country. Many of the viewers who were interviewed as they left the theater could do little more than cry. It must be a powerful movie.
Especially since many of these showings were probably packed full of conservative Christians. Anything less would be heresy.

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Old 02-24-2004, 04:13 PM   #73
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:14 PM   #74
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Nevermind.
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:33 PM   #75
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Gibson has also shown the film at AICN's film festival, which included athiests, Jews, Christians and who knows what else.

They posted at least one, if not two reviewers from athiests who also were moved by the film. You are watching a human being being tortured to death. I would think you'd have to be a sadist not to react to that.

While he has shown the film to alot of Christian groups and I have mixed feelings about that, I think it's in poor taste to make blanket statements.
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