The Passion

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I haven't seen it yet, either, but just from the previews, I know it's going to be awfully violent...but that's the point, I think. A crucifixion is not a pretty sight. Just as you can't make a movie about the Holocaust without the brutality of that time period, you can't make a movie about Jesus' death without the brutality of that time period.

My dad says that perhaps that violence will serve to show everybody just what we all do to each other every single day, with the killing and the discrimination and the cruelty and all that other stuff-maybe it'd wake people up and make them say, "Enough's enough".

Angela
 
I am finding that I want to read the discussion in this thread more than I want to go see the movie (does this make me a bad conservative Christian?). Will I see it? Someday (movie nights are a rare commodity and used wisely), but most likely a rental.

Keep up the great discussion folks.
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
My dad says that perhaps that violence will serve to show everybody just what we all do to each other every single day, with the killing and the discrimination and the cruelty and all that other stuff-maybe it'd wake people up and make them say, "Enough's enough".

A very good thought.
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
I haven't seen it yet, either, but just from the previews, I know it's going to be awfully violent...but that's the point, I think. A crucifixion is not a pretty sight. Just as you can't make a movie about the Holocaust without the brutality of that time period, you can't make a movie about Jesus' death without the brutality of that time period.

My dad says that perhaps that violence will serve to show everybody just what we all do to each other every single day, with the killing and the discrimination and the cruelty and all that other stuff-maybe it'd wake people up and make them say, "Enough's enough".

Angela

Good points. You're right, a crucifixion is just about the most brutal form of execution ever devised. You don't get the context of the Crucifixion without the torture and and the agony involved. However I don't know that it's necessary to watch ten-minute torture sequences to grasp the message of Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection and the importance of this to Christian teaching. Passion, or suffering, is relevant to practice of the Christian faith and I don't mean to knock it. I just don't want to be put on a guilt trip if I choose not to see this movie. At the very least it should be a choice.
And I think your father is right Angela. We need to think about what we do to each other every day. All the killings, atrocities and other evils going on every day should make us try to think about ways to stop the evils. Of course there's no way to get rid of evil. It's part of being human to have evil in the world. But that doesn't mean don't fight it.
 
verte76 said:
Good points. You're right, a crucifixion is just about the most brutal form of execution ever devised. You don't get the context of the Crucifixion without the torture and and the agony involved.

Exactly.

Originally posted by verte76
However I don't know that it's necessary to watch ten-minute torture sequences to grasp the message of Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection and the importance of this to Christian teaching. Passion, or suffering, is relevant to practice of the Christian faith and I don't mean to knock it. I just don't want to be put on a guilt trip if I choose not to see this movie. At the very least it should be a choice.

That makes sense. I do see what you're saying there. And you're right, you shouldn't have to be made to feel guilty if you don't go see this movie. This is heavy stuff, so I can see why it might make some people wary of seeing the movie.

Originally posted by verte76
And I think your father is right Angela. We need to think about what we do to each other every day. All the killings, atrocities and other evils going on every day should make us try to think about ways to stop the evils. Of course there's no way to get rid of evil. It's part of being human to have evil in the world. But that doesn't mean don't fight it.

Precisely. And thanks, nbcrusader.

Angela
 
A few people I know refuse to see it. Not b/c of the violence, but b/c they don't want their perception of Jesus tainted by a movie. It's a valid excuse. I know after I see it, I'll probably always picture Jesus in my mind the way he looked in the movie.
 
I don't know if this has already been brought up..I'm too lazy to look through the thread :wink:

But I was reading this article today about Sister Emmerich and her possible influence on Mel/this movie. I'm not posting this as any sort of endorsement of her, just for possible interest. Of course this is just one article, I'm sure there are plenty of other sources available. There is also a link in the article to "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ from the Meditations of Anne Catherine Emmerich".

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/140/story_14099_1.html

I know I have heard her brought up before in interviews w/ Mel Gibson, maybe even w/ Diane Sawyer... I don't recall
 
Just a word of warning... when blood leaves your extremities (as happens when a person goes into shock) your brain is left with too little, and fainting or seizure can result. I once went into shock from seeing a violently graphic photograph in a newsmagazine while I was waiting at the bank (thankfully I was sitting down). I though I was going crazy until I found out the physiological reason behind my 'episode'. You never know how a particular image might affect you.
 
pub crawler said:
I don't know that I'm going to see the movie, as from what I've read and heard, it sounds as though most of the violence inflicted on Christ in this film is, in effect, gratuitous. It sounds as though the movie is gory well beyond reason.

Chuck Smith, a well-known and influential evangelical Christian pastor from Orange County, CA, gave a positive review of the movie, but even he had the following to say: "I do think that the violence could have been overplayed. I don't know that Scripture supports the amount of violence that we saw. Also, such things as the taunting of Judas Iscariot by the children ... the Bible doesn't have this."

It's hard to judge when I haven't seen the film...for all I know it could be overplayed...but I have to wonder at comments like these. As many posters have already pointed out, flogging and cruxifiction are horrible, horrible punishments. Do people believe that because it was Jesus and because it was in the Bible, that it was somehow cleaner? Less violent?

People proudly put crosses up on churches, in their homes, around their neck. People were nailed to crosses, people died on them. Jesus was one of those people. Shouldn't Christians know what that really involved...?

Of course, I'm not advocating everyone *must* see this film to be religiously complete or anything. And I haven't seen it and I may walk out agreeing that it is too violent. I'm approaching this from more of a historical viewpoint than a religious one. It just reminds me of But I do remember people saying to me after Braveheart (another Gibson film bashed for it's copious bloodletting) "I don't even think people really did that to each other." What do you think a sword does to flesh when you hack it into someone? Since time began, we have been finding hideous ways to kill each other--and the old thought was that the longer it took, the better. And part of me does feel that this is an important film in that respect, as Moonlight Angel posted.
 
AvsGirl41 said:
People were nailed to crosses, people died on them. Jesus was one of those people. Shouldn't Christians know what that really involved...?

Do you think it's necessary to watch what has been called "the most violent film of all time" to comprehend the horror?

Do you need a re-enactment of the Holocaust gas chambers to comprehend the horror there?

I say no. We are rational, adult people. For those of us who have a medical/biological background, we know very well what happens to a body in shock. I don't need to see a movie to know what happened to Jesus.
 
anitram said:
Do you need a re-enactment of the Holocaust gas chambers to comprehend the horror there?

Well, we certainly have pictures and documentaries that show the graphic details of the Holocaust. If we were left with only a written description, we would probably have more Holocaust deniers. Same for a current example - I doubt we could fully grasp the horror of 9/11 based on a written description. Watching the video draws an entirely different response.

I think the idea that someone would voluntarily die on our behalf is really beyond our full comprehension. The graphic depiction may close that gap.
 
anitram said:
Do you think it's necessary to watch what has been called "the most violent film of all time" to comprehend the horror?

Do you need a re-enactment of the Holocaust gas chambers to comprehend the horror there?

I say no. We are rational, adult people. For those of us who have a medical/biological background, we know very well what happens to a body in shock. I don't need to see a movie to know what happened to Jesus.

People can hear statistics about the Holocaust and everything, people can hear descriptions of the crucifixion, and be shocked. But putting a human face on these incidents-that really hits home. When a person sees a family being led off to the gas chambers in a movie depicting, it makes them think, "What if that had been my family?" And that could make them even more dedicated to making sure this never happens again.

Besides, obviously there aren't any pictures or film reels of the crucifixion, so I'll go with the Holocaust here-what exactly would be the difference between seeing a movie showing those horrors and the pictures that are displayed in museums, history books, websites, etc., or the film clips from that time period?

If you don't want to see what happened to Jesus, then don't watch the movie.

Angela
 
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I think you can tell what I think of this movie by my sig.

This is definitely an eye opener. It will proabably dispose of the many "passive" christians and make them conscious of the true sacrifice behind our salvation.
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
If you don't want to see what happened to Jesus, then don't watch the movie.

I think that's a very simplistic answer.

There are people who really can't stand violent films. My mother was thinking about watching the movie, but after a colleague saw it, he told her what it entailed and she said she would probably feel sick over it. So, she's not going. It has nothing to do with not "wanting" to see it, but it's simply too gruesome for everyone.
 
AvsGirl41 said:


It's hard to judge when I haven't seen the film...for all I know it could be overplayed...but I have to wonder at comments like these. As many posters have already pointed out, flogging and cruxifiction are horrible, horrible punishments. Do people believe that because it was Jesus and because it was in the Bible, that it was somehow cleaner? Less violent?

People proudly put crosses up on churches, in their homes, around their neck. People were nailed to crosses, people died on them. Jesus was one of those people. Shouldn't Christians know what that really involved...?

Of course, I'm not advocating everyone *must* see this film to be religiously complete or anything. And I haven't seen it and I may walk out agreeing that it is too violent. I'm approaching this from more of a historical viewpoint than a religious one. It just reminds me of But I do remember people saying to me after Braveheart (another Gibson film bashed for it's copious bloodletting) "I don't even think people really did that to each other." What do you think a sword does to flesh when you hack it into someone? Since time began, we have been finding hideous ways to kill each other--and the old thought was that the longer it took, the better. And part of me does feel that this is an important film in that respect, as Moonlight Angel posted.

Oh, but they did! Drawing and quartering was the standard punishment for treason, which is what they accused William Wallace--Braveheart--of. "Braveheart" was a very violent movie, but so were the times it was set in. My nervous system was so shot after that movie that I'm really nervous about exposure to a ton of violence. I'm not sure how much penance my nervous system *needs* to feel, or appreciate Christ's suffering for us. Some people have a sanitized version of reality that doesn't comprehend this level of pain and suffering. This movie is useful to wake those people up.
 
For people who *aren't* going to see the movie but who are feeling a little guilty, maybe because they feel like they *should* see it as Christians, here are some things to do instead (collaborated on by me and my mom, as neither of us want to see the movie):

--Give a little extra money to your church or to a charity you support.
--Write a letter to an unjust company or country (Campus Ministry at my school is doing this after Mass every Sunday during Lent; they're calling it "Lenten Letters").
--Clean out your closet and give the excess to a soup kitchen or clothing closet.
--Get a Lenten devotional book and read and pray from it every day (a priest in the theology department at my college gave me a nice one).
--Get on a Lenten scripture reading plan (your clergyperson could surely recommend one).

Any other recommendations to strengthen one's faith throughout Lent without seeing the movie?
 
melon said:
High horses, aside, "Mr. Black," I'm guessing that you haven't seen the film.

You guess incorrectly. I saw the film a few hours before I dropped by.


It focuses solely on death and violence, nothing else. Such a thing as "plot" is also removed, so as to put even more focus on the death and violence. I understand that this has become a political issue, whereas liberals must hate the film and conservatives must defend it, no matter what the actual content (or lack thereof) of the film is, but let's just say that I'm tired of this excuse. I don't hate the film at all, but I also think that it misses the mark.

Maybe we saw two different films. The film I saw had flashbacks to the Sermon on the Mount and John's lengthy account of the Last Supper. In both flashbacks, Jesus taught love -- to love your enemies and to love one another.

Of course, "Mr. Black," I know precisely what you're trying to imply: that I'm a terrible Christian. And for someone who has supposedly only posted 12 posts, that's quite presumptous of you.

For someone who's only seen me post 12 times, it seems presumptuous of you to claim to know "precisely" my motives.

If you've bothered at all to read what I've been saying, it is that:

1) LOVE is the point of Jesus' first coming. You can throw around all the passage numbers you want, but if LOVE weren't so central as to why Jesus came in the first place, not only would He have not made it His sole commandment, but St. Paul wouldn't have so boldly proclaimed it "the law," in replacement of all the other (Romans 13:9-10). But LOVE is the one thing that people will continually try to avoid, because, out of all the "commandments," that one is the hardest to live up to, particularly since LOVE is not a very "macho" thing to do. And, thus, that's precisely why male-dominated religion focuses on damn near everything else but LOVE, and that's why it has missed the mark. It is, thus, no better than a group of modern-day Pharisees, and you can spit out all the Bible passages you want: that's precisely what they did too.

I agree that love is the reason Jesus came, but not just to teach love but to show love, and the Passion story is the ultimate act of love. I can't understand how you seem to miss that.

As for your criticism of the macho patriarchy, I'm quite sure I don't know what that's about. To criticize this film as the most "macho" depiction of Jesus while missing the fact that the Passion details the greatest act of love... Sorry, but you lost me.

2) The RESURRECTION is the birth of the Christian faith, not the death. In spite of Gibson's big blame game (i.e., "the Jews killed Christ," Satan's fault, "it was all our fault"), if Jesus' death and resurrection paved our way to be able to go to Heaven, as tradition holds, then is it at all possible that this is what God wanted? Of course, that would certainly imply predestination, but Christ's life is nothing without His resurrection. THAT is what this film misses as well.

Again, did we see the same movie? The film I saw began with Jesus praying in the garden, where it's clear that the Father did not want to let the cup (or "chalice") pass from His Son. When questioned by Pilate, Jesus did assert that the unfolding events were of His choosing. And it did, in fact, end with the Ressurection and triumphant major-key music.

We can disagree on whether or not there was too little emphasis on certain aspects. There is a case to be made, for instance, that there was too little time to appreciate the wonder of the Resurrection.

But the attempt was there.

If it weren't for my horse...
 
Lewis Black said:
For someone who's only seen me post 12 times, it seems presumptuous of you to claim to know "precisely" my motives.

Let's just say that I don't believe you to be an original poster, and that I have a good idea of who you were here in a previous life.

Let's also say that I'm not the only one.

Melon
 
paxetaurora said:
For people who *aren't* going to see the movie but who are feeling a little guilty, maybe because they feel like they *should* see it as Christians,

No offense Pax cause I know you are not they should, but why would anyone feel guilty for not seeing this movie?
 
Melon, if that's what you believe, why pretend otherwise?

Ultimately, I don't care if you think I'm Elmer Fudd or Daffy Duck. It has no impact on whether I'm right that the central message of Christianity is both Jesus' command to love and His redemptive, sacrificial act of love -- and that Gibson's movie atleast attempted to connect the two, even if we can argue over the success of that attempt.


If it weren't for my horse...
 
Lewis Black said:
Melon, if that's what you believe, why pretend otherwise?

Call me "polite," I guess, and that we probably shouldn't be talking, if you are who I think you are.

Ultimately, I don't care if you think I'm Elmer Fudd or Daffy Duck. It has no impact on whether I'm right that the central message of Christianity is both Jesus' command to love and His redemptive, sacrificial act of love -- and that Gibson's movie at least attempted to connect the two, even if we can argue over the success of that attempt.

Fair enough. I don't think that this is what we were arguing initially anyway; that's what I said all along. Where we got into arguments is around the Pharisee-like Christians who parade every "law" in the book, except love.

Melon
 
Then, we definitely agree on at least one thing: the chief command is love, and I'll also agree that those Christians who miss that miss the core of Christian morality.

It's just that I believe -- strongly -- that Christianity is at least as concerned with what Jesus did as it is with what Jesus taught. Most certainly, Gibson's film doesn't present the whole story of both, but it does try to connect His supreme act of love (Christ submitting to the brutality of the Passion) to His teachings of love in the upper room and during the Sermon on the Mount. The context is abbreviated (perhaps too much), but it is there.


If it weren't for my horse...
 
anitram said:
I think that's a very simplistic answer.

There are people who really can't stand violent films. My mother was thinking about watching the movie, but after a colleague saw it, he told her what it entailed and she said she would probably feel sick over it. So, she's not going. It has nothing to do with not "wanting" to see it, but it's simply too gruesome for everyone.

And that's fine. I understand that. They don't have to see the movie if they feel the violence may be too much for them to handle.

But some can manage to stomach it a little better than others, and again, since this is dealing with a crucifixion, well...it's not going to be very pretty.

That, and I think this post sums up nicely what I'm trying to say, too:

Originally posted by nbcrusader
I think the idea that someone would voluntarily die on our behalf is really beyond our full comprehension. The graphic depiction may close that gap.

:up:.

Angela
 
paxetaurora said:

Any other recommendations to strengthen one's faith throughout Lent without seeing the movie?

Find someone you feel has wronged you. Call them up, take them out to eat, and forgive them.
 
anitram said:


Do you think it's necessary to watch what has been called "the most violent film of all time" to comprehend the horror?

Do you need a re-enactment of the Holocaust gas chambers to comprehend the horror there?

I say no. We are rational, adult people. For those of us who have a medical/biological background, we know very well what happens to a body in shock. I don't need to see a movie to know what happened to Jesus.

The majority of people in America do, sadly. Again, I'm not saying people MUST see this film. It's not crucial to anyone's life and probably in this case, ignorance is bliss. All I'm arguing is that people recognize that this was a horrible reality. To go into this film and come out complaining how sickened they were show that many are not rational, thinking adults. They didn't have to see the film. The trailers alone are a good indicator of what the audience is in for.

I have to disagree with anyone calling it the most violent film of all time. Not with all the slasher and action movies that regularly push the envelope. It's the context of the violence that is bothering people.

I guess that's really my point--people are screaming that it's inappropriate in a religious film, without understanding any of the history behind it. Like I said, people wear crosses--what do they think they were originally used for?

As for the Holocaust analogy, isn't that a moot point? We have very graphic documentary footage and show it readily in classrooms and on television. It has been a long time since I've seen it and I was very young, but I recall "Schindler's List" being very graphic--and being grateful that it was in black and white. If certain scenes had been softened would it have been as accurate? As powerful?
 
melon said:


Call me "polite," I guess, and that we probably shouldn't be talking, if you are who I think you are.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember Achtung Bubba being from Pittsburg, and anyway, "Mr. Black", doesn't have the same writing style.
 
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