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Old 03-07-2004, 07:19 AM   #226
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I think it's meant to show Christians how we often take for granted the physical suffering Jesus endured on our behalf.
What I find is interesting, and I'm just thinking out loud here, is that yes while Jesus was human he suffered a great deal of physical suffering but it wasn't the most that any human has suffered. Why focus on that? Yes it was horrific, but Jesus had something we will never have(well he a lot that we will never have as humans) he had knowledge of what heaven was like. Something we can only imagine. Plus he had the knowledge that he was doing this for the sake of mankind and he knew he'd be resurected and then ascend. Not that this cheapens his sacrifice in any way. Any other human going through this wouldn't have this. I believe it to be an integral part of the story, but by no means the focus. I haven't seen the film yet and I'm not sure I will, although my curiosity may get the better of me. But there is so much more to the story to focus on, I can think of ten other items I'd rather see focused on than this. This to me doesn't encompass his life, it doesn't shed light on his teachings, and it doesn't even begin to show why people should turn to this faith. And maybe Gibson didn't want any of that, and that's cool, in fact I don't have that big of a problem with Gibson as much as I do the Church's around the world embracing this film as a witness tool. That I just don't get.

On a side note ever since I was young I always thought it would be cool to see a really well done picture of what would happen if Christ came today instead of then type of picture. I've been writing one for the last 5 years of so off and on, I don't know if I'll ever finish. It may be too arrogant of me to think my interpretation should ever see the light or would have an impact, but it's been fun and very enlightening to work on such a project. I've had some very positive feed back from friends, pastors, etc both conservative and liberal on the project, but by no means would I ever think my interpretation be taken any better than Gibson's. When you try and tackle a subject such as this you are going to get flak no matter what. The only such film that took place so far that I know of like this was called the 'The Judas Project' and it was horrible. It didn't make sence, it did the same exact story but with modern day settings. The disciples were fishermen but they drove Suburbans, he was still nailed alive to a cross like object, and it was very unclear as to who was really "after" him. It was poor.

Anyways I'm rambling. Basically what I'm trying to get at is that it's just a movie. I think it's good that it's striking up discussions, but I'm sickened by the fact that "the church" has embrassed it the way it did. This move just pushes me even further from the idea of organized religion...they just seem so desperate to make Jesus pop culture.
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Old 03-07-2004, 11:03 AM   #227
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I think it's meant to show Christians how we often take for granted the physical suffering Jesus endured on our behalf.
I'm sure that's what Gibson was after. I think he went too far. I don't need to see skin hanging off of Jesus' torso to get the point. I don't need to hear the cracking sound of his wrists being broken to get the point. I don't even need to see the spikes driven through his hands and feet with a large wooden mallet to get the point. Gibson could have made the film half as violent (or half as graphic) and I would have gotten the point. And it would have been more watchable. I'd still need more context than the screenplay allows, but it would have been more watchable.

As it stands, in my opinion the pictures Gibson gives us in The Passion of The Christ are grotesque and repulsive -- and not because of Christ's suffering, but rather because of Gibson's filmmaking. The way Gibson tells this story says a lot about his psyche and who he is as a person.
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Old 03-07-2004, 01:18 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I think it's meant to show Christians how we often take for granted the physical suffering Jesus endured on our behalf.
We can get that by contemplating Christ's Passion on our own. We don't have to see a graphic movie to recognize that crucifixion was an unbelievably brutal act. This form of punishment originated in Persia, and was used rather frequently by the Romans. I'm a really squeamish person. I don't think I need to watch ten-minute torture sequences to get some sort of understanding of what He went through for us. In the Catholic Church, the devotion of the Stations of the Cross is remembrance of Christ's Passion. Perhaps some people feel like they want to make Christ's suffering more real for them by seeing this movie. Fine. Just don't tell me my practice of my faith is somehow devalued by not seeing this movie. It's only a movie.
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Old 03-07-2004, 01:46 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76


We can get that by contemplating Christ's Passion on our own. We don't have to see a graphic movie to recognize that crucifixion was an unbelievably brutal act. This form of punishment originated in Persia, and was used rather frequently by the Romans. I'm a really squeamish person. I don't think I need to watch ten-minute torture sequences to get some sort of understanding of what He went through for us. In the Catholic Church, the devotion of the Stations of the Cross is remembrance of Christ's Passion. Perhaps some people feel like they want to make Christ's suffering more real for them by seeing this movie. Fine. Just don't tell me my practice of my faith is somehow devalued by not seeing this movie. It's only a movie.
This is exactly the response I was trying to come up with but verte said it perfectly.

I understand that some people have been moved deeply by this movie and I'm glad for them but I won't be seeing it.
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Old 03-07-2004, 02:04 PM   #230
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Originally posted by verte76


We can get that by contemplating Christ's Passion on our own. We don't have to see a graphic movie to recognize that crucifixion was an unbelievably brutal act. ... It's only a movie.
Yeah, I know, I'm not saying your a bad Christian for not wanting to see it, but for some people (like me) it's a real eye-opener. I have a hard time just imagining things with no visual to contemplate and I think something that's THIS important to me, it was a good experience to now at least have SOME idea of the pain and brutality.

You can compare it to the AIDS in Africa issue: I've been active about this for a while, and it's been a real passion of mine, but it wasn't until I actually met an African woman with HIV who's baby boy and husband had died of HIV that I really understood and felt the issue in my heart. Like Gibson's Passion is HIS interpretation, meeting ONE person with HIV is just ONE scenario my mind/heart uses to represent the whole.

I dunno if that makes any sense at all....
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Old 03-07-2004, 04:59 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Yeah, I know, I'm not saying your a bad Christian for not wanting to see it, but for some people (like me) it's a real eye-opener. I have a hard time just imagining things with no visual to contemplate and I think something that's THIS important to me, it was a good experience to now at least have SOME idea of the pain and brutality.

You can compare it to the AIDS in Africa issue: I've been active about this for a while, and it's been a real passion of mine, but it wasn't until I actually met an African woman with HIV who's baby boy and husband had died of HIV that I really understood and felt the issue in my heart. Like Gibson's Passion is HIS interpretation, meeting ONE person with HIV is just ONE scenario my mind/heart uses to represent the whole.

I dunno if that makes any sense at all....
I think that makes perfect sense, LivLuv.

I do also see what BVS and verte are saying, too, though. I particularly agree with you guys about the way some religious people are embracing this movie.

Angela
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Old 03-07-2004, 06:13 PM   #232
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Today I spoke to someone who saw the film with me and, for the sake of accuracy, I want to note the following: In the movie the soldiers didn't break Jesus' wrists (as I wrote in my last post in this thread); rather, they (apparently) broke his arms/and or pulled them from the shoulder joints (this was one of the moments in the movie where I was wincing and turning my eyes away from the screen while catching flickers of what was transpiring on screen. All I know is, I heard what sounded like bones snapping). Also, during the nailing of Jesus' hands and feet to the cross, you saw the swinging of the wooden mallet, the spikes, Jesus' hands and feet, and the freshly hammered spikes protruding from said hands and feet but it was cut so that you didn't actually see the spikes driven through flesh. Again, I was looking away because I didn't feel a need to see those portions of Gibson's base, sadistic vision.
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Old 03-07-2004, 09:51 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Yeah, I know, I'm not saying your a bad Christian for not wanting to see it, but for some people (like me) it's a real eye-opener. I have a hard time just imagining things with no visual to contemplate and I think something that's THIS important to me, it was a good experience to now at least have SOME idea of the pain and brutality.

You can compare it to the AIDS in Africa issue: I've been active about this for a while, and it's been a real passion of mine, but it wasn't until I actually met an African woman with HIV who's baby boy and husband had died of HIV that I really understood and felt the issue in my heart. Like Gibson's Passion is HIS interpretation, meeting ONE person with HIV is just ONE scenario my mind/heart uses to represent the whole.

I dunno if that makes any sense at all....
It does!! I understand that it makes the Passion more *real* for some people, and that's a good thing. I'm not "against" this movie in any way. I just felt like some people--not in this forum-- have treated this movie almost like it's a church service or whatever, as if you're missing something crucial in your Christian life if you don't see it. I don't think this is true.
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Old 03-07-2004, 10:00 PM   #234
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Many of you may think Mel went over the top, but I would guess it still didn't show every horrible torture that happened. If you can't even bear to watch it, how many millions times worse must it have been to actually go through it? I felt that in some small way I was paying respect to what Christ went through by not turning away or walking out.
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Old 03-07-2004, 10:13 PM   #235
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I don't know if I mentioned this, but I never winced once in the film. Have I grown desensitized to film violence? All I could do was admire the simulations of violence and gawk at the great makeup job they did. I also then wondered how I could set up a prop to spew blood the same way in a film of my own someday.

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Old 03-07-2004, 10:39 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
I'm not "against" this movie in any way. I just felt like some people--not in this forum-- have treated this movie almost like it's a church service or whatever, as if you're missing something crucial in your Christian life if you don't see it. I don't think this is true.
I don't think so, either. Everybody should be able to decide to go or not go to a movie without getting flak for making said choice. You have your reasons. That's good enough.

Angela
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Old 03-08-2004, 12:00 AM   #237
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave
Many of you may think Mel went over the top, but I would guess it still didn't show every horrible torture that happened. If you can't even bear to watch it, how many millions times worse must it have been to actually go through it? I felt that in some small way I was paying respect to what Christ went through by not turning away or walking out.
So should we start making snuff films documenting every gory detail of violent gay bashings, slave lynchings, document every painful procedure that an AIDS of cancer patient suffers for 5 years just to pay respect for these people's suffering? The torture had such a small role in Jesus life why are we making movies like this? Jesus was not the only person to go through this type of torture, in fact many men have suffered more, should we make films about them? Why focus on this? Now I'm not being cold about Christ's suffering, believe me I will never take that for granted, but what does one gain from this portrayal?
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Old 03-08-2004, 10:52 AM   #238
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I don't think there's any way for us to really comprehend what Christ went through. It wasn't just physical; He took on the sin of the world, and all the emotional torment that meant. The movie focuses on the physical torment, which was enormous, but the Passion was so much more. It's a mystery. We'll never understand it. For some the movie makes it more real. I don't think God is asking us to get our nervous systems shot to bits when He asks that we acknowledge the suffering Christ went through. For this Catholic, the Stations of the Cross is really a better way to do this.
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Old 03-08-2004, 09:00 PM   #239
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I saw this movie and liked it. Didn't feel there was any anti semitism only ignorance coming from the power mongers and the brutal Roman guards.
I saw alot of ugliness in this film displayed in herd/mob mentality.
Ironically I saw some Jewish heroes, namely Jesus, Mary and Mary M.

This was too much "over-kill"- no pun intended.

vince peal
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Old 03-09-2004, 01:08 AM   #240
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Originally posted by verte76
I don't think there's any way for us to really comprehend what Christ went through. It wasn't just physical; He took on the sin of the world, and all the emotional torment that meant. The movie focuses on the physical torment, which was enormous, but the Passion was so much more. It's a mystery. We'll never understand it. For some the movie makes it more real. I don't think God is asking us to get our nervous systems shot to bits when He asks that we acknowledge the suffering Christ went through. For this Catholic, the Stations of the Cross is really a better way to do this.
(besides the Catholic part since I'm not Catholic, sorry!)

I'm going to admit that I really only saw the movie b/c a) I wanted to see what all the talk was about b) my boyfriend's mother told him he had to go and he didn't want to go alone and c) I got a student rate ticket. Not that I wouldn't have seen it sooner or later, or didn't want to, but I wasn't planning on it at first.


There's one thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned yet here that my Rev. pointed out in a review he wrote: Did anyone else actually feel relieved when Jesus was put on the cross? Like the shouting and kicking and whipping would finally stop? Doesn't that kind of take away from the crucifiction part of the story where Jesus is calling out to God? I dunno, I admit I WAS relieved when they reached the top of the hill.
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