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Old 11-22-2004, 03:44 PM   #16
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Old 11-22-2004, 03:48 PM   #17
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Um no, I've heard churches, individuals, and politicians all over the country say "the people spoke and morality won." Even some of the individuals in here said the same thing.
Uh yeah, after the fact. Everyone jumped on the "moral values" bandwagon after the exit poll was reported.

If there was an influencial group, I would say it was the Catholic Church and their stand on gay marriage.
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Old 11-22-2004, 03:55 PM   #18
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where I live poverty is real. I make $8.30 an hour and I am considered extremely well paid for this area. We have homeless people here and yes we even have people that have nothing to eat sometimes.

I live in a very rural area where there's really nowhere to work except at a fast food place or wal-mart. Most people are trying to get by and raise their kids on $5.25 an hour. So, to say that true poverty doesn't exist in America is false.

We spend billions of dollars on wars when people right here dont have homes, food, money to heat their homes or to buy medicine. It's disgusting.
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Old 11-22-2004, 04:08 PM   #19
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yes ... whatever happened to GOP_Catholic? last i remember he was busy hiding his children from people like me.
He became a bus driver.
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Old 11-22-2004, 05:24 PM   #20
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GOP_Catholic has been granted a permanent vacation.

Now let's get back on topic, hmmmmm?
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Old 11-22-2004, 05:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

If there was an influencial group, I would say it was the Catholic Church and their stand on gay marriage.
Actually, I think that the Church hierarchy is more obsessed with abortion as a "moral" issue than gay marriage. At least that is my personal perception from listening to various clergy.
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Old 11-22-2004, 06:11 PM   #22
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Originally posted by anitram


Actually, I think that the Church hierarchy is more obsessed with abortion as a "moral" issue than gay marriage. At least that is my personal perception from listening to various clergy.
I agree.
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Old 11-23-2004, 07:56 AM   #23
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Historically, yes abortion has been one of the prime issues for the Catholic church. From what I've read in the post-election wrap-ups, the Catholic church mobilized members on the gay marriage issue.
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:00 AM   #24
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm in agreeance with you. I don't think either side addressed the issue. But one side does claim to be the "moral" side and that's what I'm taking issue with.
True, despite claims to the contrary. But the other side claims to be the friend of the working class. There's enough hypocrisy to go around.

nbcrusader, find me a Republican who didn't run hard on some variation of family or moral values. Whether the exit polling showed that they won because of this is not the relevant point - they still made the claims.
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:15 AM   #25
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First, we have never defined "moral values" in this context.

Second, both sides envoked moral values, religion, faith, whatever in their campaigns.



I find it interesting in how we all quickly argue and point political fingers on this point, and ignore the core message of this thread.
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Old 11-23-2004, 11:01 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
First, we have never defined "moral values" in this context.
Who's we? Like I said, I've heard many, many conservatives define moral values in this context, this time around.

Yes both sides envoked morals and religion, but I only heard one side actually claim the moral side...and not only after the fact.
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Old 11-23-2004, 11:43 AM   #27
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this points to a democratic weakness. i think we all know what republicans mean when they talk about "moral values":

anti-choice
anti-gay marriage (not necessarily anti-gay)
church attendence
honoring of the traditional nuclear family
opposition to sex and language in film, music, television (does not necessarily apply to violence)

these are just a few of the specifics i could come up with off the top of my head. but i have an idea of what the republicans mean -- they do a wonderful job conflating their platform and the term "moral values" with the highly idealized image we all have of America in the 1950s. picket fences, mom, apple pie, baseball, church, etc. i'm not saying, nor do i believe, than a majority (or even a sizeable minority) of Republicans would endorse such relics of the 50's such as racial segregation and gender inequality. but there's a yearning for a more easily understood and defined time, when boys were boys, girls were girls, dad was home by 6 and mom had dinner on the table. but we're talking more about the spirit of the thing than the specifics of the thing.

the problem with the democrats is that they haven't articulated or created a vision of their version of moral values. what would some of those be?

every child a wanted child
celebration of the diversity of American culture, i.e. religion, race, ethnicity, etc.
civil rights for all couples, or more bravely: the expansion of marriage
the value of nontraditional families
health care for all

these strike me as every bit as moral as the Republican values listed above. the democrats need to turn this into a vision, but it's difficult -- being more liberal and necessarily predicated on change, they don't have a reimagined past to tap into for easy emotion and instant connection.
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:41 PM   #28
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Out of respect for the opposing side, I don't refer to their politics as pro-abortion or pro-death. I would appreciate it if you did the same.
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Old 11-24-2004, 07:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Out of respect for the opposing side, I don't refer to their politics as pro-abortion or pro-death. I would appreciate it if you did the same.

i don't understand you're comment.

i do, however, refuse to call those who oppose abortion rights as being "pro-life." we're all pro-life. being pro-choice doesn't mean that you stand against life, that's a misnomer. the issue, in this necessarily political context, concerns the legality of a woman having a choice to have an abortion or not. instead of anti-choice, i could accept "pro-birth" because that seems to be as far as many (though not all) who call themselves are willing to go. if you were truly pro-life, you'd feed that child, care for that child, educate that child, provide quality housing for that child, etc.

therefore, i wrap the issue around the word "choice."
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Old 11-24-2004, 07:59 AM   #30
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How about... anti-abortion? You can call me that. I personally think the choice is whether you want to have sex or not if you're not ready to raise kids.
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