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Old 04-02-2004, 05:16 PM   #31
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Now we're learning the price of forcibly pushing people who aren't ready for change directly into it.
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Old 04-02-2004, 05:38 PM   #32
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I have never jumped for joy or danced in the streets when someone has been killed/murdered. I just cannot wrap my brain around the fact that some people do this
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Old 04-02-2004, 09:46 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Iraq Muslim Cleric Condemns Mutilation



The killings were not condemned, just the mutilations. At least they have some boundries.....
I went over the edge when I saw this. Killing the infidel is OK. Mutilation is not OK.

Makes total sense to me.

Not that they would ever advocate the killing of the infidels. No it is a religion of peace. They are the victims.
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Old 04-02-2004, 09:55 PM   #34
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Of course, this is a terrible turn of events.

What interests me, from an academic POV, is issues of who is "worthy to live" and who is "worthy to die." Four dead American civilians is bad news, and rightfully so. But imagine thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, whether intentionally or not. They're dead, and, at least from the American POV, their lives are just numbers. We have to remember, though, that this is flipped from their POV; dead Americans = numbers. Dead Iraqis = sadness.

I see a people so ravaged by conflict, whether it be at the hands of Saddam, at the manipulation by Islamic clerics, or by Americans. Barbarism is the tool of the desperate.

I also do not think that there will ever be a positive end to this conflict. Iraq, if they ever even make it to a democratic election, will likely elect Shi'ite clerics, who will do away completely with democracy. Welcome to a mirror of Iran.

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Old 04-03-2004, 05:42 AM   #35
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Old 04-03-2004, 09:23 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Of course, this is a terrible turn of events.

What interests me, from an academic POV, is issues of who is "worthy to live" and who is "worthy to die." Four dead American civilians is bad news, and rightfully so. But imagine thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, whether intentionally or not. They're dead, and, at least from the American POV, their lives are just numbers. We have to remember, though, that this is flipped from their POV; dead Americans = numbers. Dead Iraqis = sadness.

I see a people so ravaged by conflict, whether it be at the hands of Saddam, at the manipulation by Islamic clerics, or by Americans. Barbarism is the tool of the desperate.

I also do not think that there will ever be a positive end to this conflict. Iraq, if they ever even make it to a democratic election, will likely elect Shi'ite clerics, who will do away completely with democracy. Welcome to a mirror of Iran.

Melon
I agree. If they had an election right now their choice of a leader would be al-Sistani. If you don't believe me I read that in a Persian newspaper that's circulated around the South. There would be another Shi'ite state in the Middle East.
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Old 04-03-2004, 01:14 PM   #37
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Hope you hear something soon Wolfeden.



Dreadsox you have your proof right here in those images that Iraq is not ready for democracy.
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Old 04-03-2004, 02:10 PM   #38
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I think its a huge mistake to be judging whether Iraq or any country is ready for democracy based simply on these murders. It totally ignores the accomplishments of millions of Iraqi's with the help of the United States and their coalition partners over the past year.

As most soldiers returning from Iraq say, the Iraq you see on the news is not the Iraq they experience everyday. I find it unbelievable that people here think democracy and economic development are only possible if there are no problems. There are going to be problems for years and years just as their have been in nearly every country that has developed into a democracy.

Lets remember that the Sunni Triangle is a very small part of Iraq and its a mistake to extrapolate the events in the Sunni Triangle to be what is going on in Iraq on average today.

Even if Iraq becomes dominated by the Shia, its a gross generalization to say that Iraq will have turned into Iran, which by the way has continued to move toward democracy over the past 20 years. Iran today is not the Iran of 1979. Iraq will not turn into what Iran is today or was in the past. The Shia of Iraq are not clones of the Shia in Iran.

Those that do not want to see democracy in Iraq definitely want to foster this image that Democracy in Iraq is impossible. They want to directly influence the support that the operation currently has, just as they did with the bombings in Madrid. Hopefully, the rest of the coalition will not fall for it like the Spanish have.
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Old 04-03-2004, 03:48 PM   #39
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Sting, this stuff upsets me *because* I very much want Iraq to become a democracy. Do you think I want them to have a government in which certain people--maybe women, maybe Sunni Moslems, fill-in-the-blank group, etc, etc, don't have any rights? No. That would suck. I'm just reading stuff written by Iranians in the U.S, who are pro-democracy, too. Even now, Iran is a mess right now because the government is suppressing their reformist/liberal element, much to the disgust of Persians in the U.S. I really don't know a hell of alot about al-Sistani and I don't want to judge him too fast. But, if a completely democratic election were held in Iraq right now, they'd elect him their leader. U.S. Shia Moslems claim he's the best bet for democracy in the area, and they do not support the U.S. plans. They think the Western model of making "the people" sovereign isn't for them. "Sovereignty belongs only to Allah" is the way they look at it. There's a gap that no one can cross.
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:00 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Iran today is not the Iran of 1979. Iraq will not turn into what Iran is today or was in the past. The Shia of Iraq are not clones of the Shia in Iran.
You're right. Iran today is more conservative, in terms of leadership, and whatever the public thinks is irrelevant. In spite of the moves by the reformists, in one fell swoop, they're gone.

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Old 04-03-2004, 04:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


You're right. Iran today is more conservative, in terms of leadership, and whatever the public thinks is irrelevant. In spite of the moves by the reformists, in one fell swoop, they're gone.

Melon
That's right. Unfortunately, the reformists in Iran are fd. It's too bad the damn Iranian government can get away with this. Iranians in the U.S. are furious. It's not good.
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Old 04-03-2004, 05:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I think its a huge mistake to be judging whether Iraq or any country is ready for democracy based simply on these murders. It totally ignores the accomplishments of millions of Iraqi's with the help of the United States and their coalition partners over the past year.
I have said already...it is not this one incident. There are plenty of incidents.

And the five soldiers that same day were overshadowed by this. And the 51 dead last month are overshadowed by this. And we are now becoming less sensative to the fact that 51 dead Americans in a month is 51 too many. For WHAT? We were not supposed to be there establishing Democracy. I and others joined the service not to bring democracy into places. Sorry, that was not in the oath I took.
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Old 04-03-2004, 06:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76


That's right. Unfortunately, the reformists in Iran are fd. It's too bad the damn Iranian government can get away with this. Iranians in the U.S. are furious. It's not good.
Yeah, and the problem is that it's also just a part of the government. The political government wants to reform, wants to become (a bit) more democratic. However, the religious government (clerics) withhold any slight step to more openness. Like with the elections a few weeks ago, where thousands of reform-minded politicians were removed from the ballots for being too progressive.



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Old 04-03-2004, 10:16 PM   #44
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The Iran of 1979 following the revolution was far more conservative than it is today. Iran has moved away from that militant conservatism over the years. The reformist movement in Iran is not at all dead. The next two decades will see a massive population explosion in Iran if UN projections are correct. The conservatives will eventually be pushed to the side.

Many Shia Muslims have supported US plans in Iraq. They have worked with the US and Coalition forces and are 50% of the governing council. There are certainly Shia that have other idea's but its a mistake to generalize and put all Shia's into one pot. Lets also remember that the constitution that was agreed to is historic and is a positive sign for the future. Yes there are disagreements, but that is enevitable in any such process.

Before we declare that Iraq is headed for a conservative Islamic future, lets remember that Iraq is the most progressive and secular society in the Arab world.

If you believe that it was in the US and Global Security interest to remove Saddam from power, given the circumstances, then I think it is a necessity that you should support the building of a Democracy in Iraq. A Democratic Iraq improves the security of the region which if vital to the United States and other industrialized countries around the world. It makes the chances of war in the future far less likely.

Look at the situation in Europe today. Almost all of the countries in Europe are democracies. Most are apart of the same military alliance and are economic partners in the EU. The threat of major war in Europe is now pratically 0. That is an unbelievable accomplishment when one considers Europe's history.

It also would have been impossible without that sacrifice's of the United States and other countries over the past 90 years or so. The United States has been involved in establishing and protecting democracies around the world for nearly a century now. The majority of the wars the United States has fought in since 1775 have involved the element of either protecting or establishing democracy.

It is frustrating and heartbreaking every time an American or anyone trying to make things better in Iraq is killed. 51 Americans died in Iraq last month (March) and about 35 of them died from hostile fire. I'm disappointed that the insurgency has continued to have legs and it will probably take years to wipe it out completely.

All the losses are terrible, but if we are to talk numbers, take a look at March 1968, March 1951, March 1944, March 1918 and you will find a casualty rate anywhere from 50 to 300 times greater depending on the war.

The United States and its coalition allies continue to train and equip the Iraqi police, security services and Military. As the Iraqi police,security, and military capabilities improve, the Coalition will be able to withdraw more and more troops. As economic development and democracy take hold, the insurgency's strength will decrease. These factors over time will reduce US and coaltion losses in the country. Its going to take time though and I'm concerned that the reduction in the US casualty rate will probably come from simply the withdrawal of more US forces as Iraqi's take over responsibility for security.

While the Iraqi security services are lacking in many capabilities, they already have capabilities that most US and coalition forces do not. This is their country and they speak the language. Over time as their other capabilities get better, they will become more effective than any coalition force in rooting out these terrorist cells.

As long as mass secterian violence between the various ethnic groups can be avoided, and the international community continues to fund and support the development as required, Iraq is going to make it as a country and a democracy.

Its difficult to predict how long the insurgency movement will continue. Although I hope that it will lose much of its strength following the first full democratic election in January 2005, everyone one should be prepared that it will continue for years just as such movements have in other places. I believe though that as the economic and political situation in Iraq improves, you will see a similar decrease in the strength and number of attacks from the insurgency.
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Old 04-05-2004, 04:37 PM   #45
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It looks like I am not the only one who has come to the conclusion about Iraq:

[Q]I have to admit that until now I have never longed for the days of Saddam, but now I'm not so sure. If we need a person like Saddam to keep those rabid dogs at bay then be it. Put Saddam back in power and after he fills a couple hundred more mass graves with those criminals they can start wailing and crying again for liberation. What a laugh we will have then. Then they can shove their filthy Hawza and marji'iya up somewhere else. I am so dissapointed in Iraqis and I hate myself for thinking this way. We are not worth your trouble, take back your billions of dollars and give us Saddam again. We truly 'deserve' leaders like Saddam.[/Q]

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/

I do not agree with the mass grave part....but.....the saddam part..yeah
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