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Old 04-01-2004, 10:40 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Dread. I hear you. But I think FW and Klaus have wise words. Also...do I have my facts wrong?
SD
Sherry,

Bottom of the article......says some witnesses claim the people in the car were alive.
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Old 04-01-2004, 10:47 AM   #17
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Dread, I have been arguing that these people are not ready for democracy. I think this has struck some people as being excessively cynical. But that's really the crux of my whole argument about the situation in Iraq a year ago and now. These people have no experience in democracy, or even much in the way of any kind of reform. There's no way a culture that lacks a sense of individualism as we know it in the West is going to adopt a Western-style democracy. While I do not want to keep brutal dictators in power anywhere, I fear Iraq could still fall into the hands of a dictatorial faction, and the place would be no better off. Yes, Turkey became a democracy, but they did it themselves. Anyone wanting to understand how this happened can read Andrew Mango's excellent and honest book about Ataturk. I highly recommend this book to anyone wanting to understand the development of a secular, democratic state in the Middle East.
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Old 04-01-2004, 11:56 AM   #18
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think back to the debates in here, and I do remember saying that I believed American soldiers SHOULD NEVER be used to spread Democracy.
I fully agree

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They are NOT ready for Democracy
I'm affraid you could be right with that too

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and I find myself moving back to my original position before the war. If there is NOT a CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER, the forces of the United States should be home.
Again 100% agreed

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Damn the UN to hell for not doing something about Iraq LONG before this. Instead, we can play f-ing politics with a food for palace program and using veto votes to do anything meaningful for 12 years.
Yes, shame on all our "civilized" politicans, they f**k it up for decades until hate and violence is at an unbelievable level. There's so often one *** country with veto-power who saves the ass of a government who brakes humanitarian rules again and again.

We saw it in Iraq and see that in Palestine too. (just 2 examples of a way to long list)

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I do not believe that "Honest People" do the things I saw in the photos. I do not believe that a "civilized" people react this way towards people who have come and freed them from one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world.
I'm affraid you're right here too.
Real Honest or Civilized people don't kill others except the case of self-defense.

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I would love for someone, anyone to explain why it is logical for "Honest Iraqis" to seek VENGENCE against Civilians. I would love for someone to explain to me why my feelings and emotions are characterized as being VENGEFUL. I want justice. Do me a favor, do not characterize me as wanting revenge. I want to know why so many have died in this area in one week including soldiers, and nothing is being done about it by the Iraqi POLICE or the US forces.
I asume that lots of them who got violent over the last decades in iraq wanted justice for a long time, maybe some of them had to big expectations in the liberation and after they got liberated lots of friends and relatives were shot down while protesting for their rights.
And i'm sure they didn't forget what our countries did to them under the "UN-banner". With the perverted food-for-oil program and with the bombings between Iraq war "Bush Senior" and the Iraq war "Bush Junior".

And remember that the US army didn't even say "sorry" when they accidentially shot civilians.
Do you think many of these people still believe in our justice system?
We don't even have an official statistics over the "colateral damage" from their perspective it must look like we don't give a **** about their lifes.

I don't think that you could ever be a person like them, i don't believe you would make terror strikes against another army who occupies your country.
It was just thinking that both, you and these criminals finaly lost hope.

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If you believe these people are ready for Democracy, I would love to see a logical argument.
I don't think they are ready for that.
Ask one of the people who thought that invading a country and starting nation building could work that easily.

Except in self-defense or extreme cases of going to war against a nation that wants to conquer the world (Nazi Germany, Napoleon-France, British Empire etc) i don't think that war helps in solving a problems.
The change has to come from the people - they make the revolution. Maybe international help can be good - but i still think that only the UN should decide if the international comunity should react.

Klaus
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Old 04-01-2004, 02:56 PM   #19
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One thing that disturbs me is how these horrible images are slapped on the front page of the New York Times while we never see images of bodies being returned home, or caskets, or funerals or wounded soldiers back at home. We're only shown terrible images that portray the Iraqi people as animals while we are not allowed to see grieving families or funerals or, God forbid, GWB attending the funeral of a US soldier.
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Old 04-01-2004, 03:03 PM   #20
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
One thing that disturbs me is how these horrible images are slapped on the front page of the New York Times while we never see images of bodies being returned home, or caskets, or funerals or wounded soldiers back at home. We're only shown terrible images that portray the Iraqi people as animals while we are not allowed to see grieving families or funerals or, God forbid, GWB attending the funeral of a US soldier.

Shall I post an article that totally shows that most of the media, including FOX refused to show the immages.

And do we have to reopen the GW BUSH attending funeral topic again. There is NO HISTORICAL PRECIDENT for Presidents to do this. LBJ attended ONE if memory serves me correct. It was the funeral of a friends son who died in Vietnam. If I can find the link I will, but history is on GW's side on this issue.
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Old 04-01-2004, 03:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


And do we have to reopen the GW BUSH attending funeral topic again. There is NO HISTORICAL PRECIDENT for Presidents to do this. LBJ attended ONE if memory serves me correct. It was the funeral of a friends son who died in Vietnam. If I can find the link I will, but history is on GW's side on this issue.
You don't have to jump down my throat. I was not part of any funeral discussion. Believe it or not, I have not read every thread in these forums. I am just expressing an observation about the control of the images we see around this war.
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Old 04-01-2004, 03:40 PM   #22
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oops
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Old 04-01-2004, 03:41 PM   #23
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl


You don't have to jump down my throat. I was not part of any funeral discussion. Believe it or not, I have not read every thread in these forums. I am just expressing an observation about the control of the images we see around this war.
Not jumping...sorry...just tired.
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:25 PM   #25
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Re: Re: "the news today"

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am sorry if I pulled your thread off track. I hope and pray you hear from your friend soon.
Thank you.... and everyone else for the hope and concern expressed.....

Dreadsox it's alright, with the way things are I'm open to anything becoming a topic of communication as long as people keep their heads and don't flame.. I'm wearing "Nomex undies" (fire proof material, old FF/EMS joke) but others have every reason and more to get upset... Yau is an old friend of mine and I love him a lot but for others it is their families...husbands, wives, parents, children in danger...

I saw the footage last night on PBS' Newshour and I damn near threw up. In my line of work (EMT) I've seen the worst things that can happen to the human body and while I can't say I'm "used to it" I certainly don't have that kind of reaction as a professional.... here it was the context and the desecration that took place that turned my guts.

The behavior of the Iraqis shown was so terribly, frighteningly different than what my friend has been telling us he's experienced in Tikrit and Baghdad. Fallujah, where the incident took place, is being described as a 'Saddam support zone' and if what we are told is true (and that's a big if, my friends) it is something of an isolated pocket of pro-Saddam sentiment in an otherwise relieved country.

Certainly it will stir up rage and disgust in anyone's heart and spirit, and the temptation to dismiss all Iraqis as being 'secretly' just like the Fallujah men is very strong. It is a visceral reaction and rises within all of us -- but we must not allow it to overrule our minds.

Yes. I stared at the images on my small, badly-receiving (no cable) TV and with the bile in my throat rose that cold hard knot of fury that screams "F--- them all, nuke them to glass, how dare they, ignorant brainless savages" -- but my mind knows better than that. It's so hard seeing the bodies come home to Massachusetts where Dreadsox and I both live, or to Illinois, or Texas, or Scotland or everywhere else that has lost one of its own. It's hard to breathe when I think that one of these times it could be Yau in that casket, or worse, only his dog tags....
I feel the same rage and disgust at those who perpetrated this attack as anyone else with a heart does, but I will not allow myself to let it write off the entire country's people. I cannot.

I don't agree with the premise that got us into this conflict and I have protested it - as I protested the first one - , but now that we have gone in and shaken everything up we cannot leave without putting back some semblance of order and we cannot simply throw up our hands and declare it futile to try.
True, the existance of the average Iraqi was ugly and brutal under Saddam - but also under the US-imposed sanctions, which created incredible hardship for most of the population but did not affect the regime and its sympathizers in the slightest. They have no reason to celebrate us as liberators when much of their misery came from us to begin with.

Christ, I don't even know where this is going anymore. I guess I'm trying to say we all need to keep talking and informing and challenging one another's point of view, and keep it as civil as possible, because there is no one single easy answer and we all stand to learn from one another.


"Talk to each other......." - Bono, at the end of Kite at Slane
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:29 PM   #26
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I hope you hear from your friend soon. There is hope, I know a girl whose brother was not heard from for 5 days and they expected the worst, but he turned up fine and had been in a situation where he couldn't get away or contact anyone. Once the coast was clear he came out. Good vibes
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Old 04-01-2004, 10:11 PM   #27
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you know, i actually watched the video coverage on this last night.

the person that refuses to watch passion of the christ or many other movies or tv shows watched it. ME.

I have to say, i cannot judge whether it is our right to say if iraqi's are ready for democracy or not.

But the people that did this are pure evil.

no matter what your religious belief or what kind of country you live in or what your mores are, that is a pure act of evil.

it's a sad day and I don't know what else to say...
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Old 04-02-2004, 01:52 AM   #28
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First of all, wolfeden, I hope you hear from your friend.

Second, I can understand why Dreadsow is feeling mad at the moment. What these people did was an act of such disgust and gore. It made me absolutely sick what those people did to the corpses. How can someone do this? They must be fuelled by so much hatred.

What repulsed so much more is that kids were participating in this. How can a child engage in something so atrocious? I cannot understand.

I saw the footage and the photos, Im still shocked.
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Old 04-02-2004, 02:33 PM   #29
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Iraq Muslim Cleric Condemns Mutilation

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In Fallujah, Sheik Fawzi Nameq addressed 600 worshippers gathered at the Hmood al-Mahmood Mosque, which is opposite the mayor's office and a few blocks from the scene of the deadly ambush Wednesday.

"Islam does not condone the mutilation of the bodies of the dead," the cleric said.
The killings were not condemned, just the mutilations. At least they have some boundries.....
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:13 PM   #30
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I think maybe this should be a separate thread considering wolfeden's personal situation

God help the families of those people who were killed in that way-there are no words...
I agree so i can feel free to react,...

I hope your friend will be OK wolfeden,....
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