The need for speed

[DebbieSG]

I saw this on TV, so I can't refer you to a real article, but this is shocking! They found that the pilots who accidentally shot down the four Canadians were taking speed, something they often do to reduce fatigue.

So here we have a government who allows illicit drugs for its servicemen, but outlaws medical marijuana.

Be found with an ounce of anything, you get 20 years in prison (maybe i'm exagerating here), but fly in the airforce, and that's fine, you may need it.

We're fighting a war on drugs, but they allow same drugs in our war...well they were all over vietnam, too...

Don't operate heavy machinery when taking cough medicine, but million dollar airplanes are ok with crank

junkies may have a new out here...


Should I go on? The worst is that it really does put people in danger and some have been killed. US Army, just say no!

 

[martha]

Our government was trafficking heroin during the Vietnam War.

 

[Salome]

yep, I read about that
didn't want to believe it though

 

[Dreadsox]

US pilots blame drug for friendly fire deaths

Oliver Burkeman in New York and Richard Norton-Taylor
Saturday January 4, 2003
The Guardian

Two American fighter pilots facing trial for the "friendly fire" killings of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan last April were pressured by the US air force into taking amphetamines that may have impaired their judgment, their lawyers allege.
Pilots are routinely pressured to take dextroamphetamine - known to the troops as "go pills" - in order to keep them alert on irregular schedules and night flights, their lawyer, David Beck, said, in advance of a hearing to decide whether Major Harry Schmidt and Major William Umbach should be court-martialled.

The air force conceded that low doses of the drug, manufactured as Dexedrine, had been offered to pilots since the second world war. It insisted the drug was safe and its use was voluntary as part of a "fatigue management program". But a former British assistant chief of defence staff called the policy "very odd".

Maj Schmidt, 37, and Maj Umbach, 43, could each receive 64 years in military prison. They are accused of involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and dereliction of duty for the incident on April 17, when Maj Schmidt, flying a night mission with Maj Umbach, dropped a laser-guided bomb from his F-16 on Canadian forces training at a former al-Qaida training camp.

Marc Leger, Ainsworth Dyer, Richard Green and Nathan Smith were killed instantly, stoking opposition to the war in Canada, which had not suffered deaths in combat since the Korean war. The US air force said the pilots "demonstrated poor airmanship", failing to check that no friendly troops were in the area.

GlaxoSmithKline, which makes Dexedrine, warns that the drug "may impair the patient's ability to engage in potentially hazardous activity such as operating machines and vehicles and that patients should be cautioned accordingly," Charles Gittins, Maj Schmidt's lawyer, told the Guardian. "Well, the pilots weren't cautioned accordingly. They weren't even told about that."

Mr Gittins, himself a former pilot in the marines, denied the air force's claim that no pressure was exerted.

"All you have to do is read the quote-unquote informed consent, and it basically says, if you don't take them, you'll be grounded."

The air force refused to comment on the details of the case, and said it had never received any other report of the drug contributing to accidents, while fatigue had contributed to nearly 100. "No one is forced to take these drugs," Colonel Alvina Mitchell, chief of media operations, told Reuters.

The RAF does not give amphetamines to its pilots, the Ministry of Defence said yesterday.

The US air force practice was described as "very odd" by Air Marshal Sir Tim Garden, a former pilot and assistant chief of defence staff.

It was strange, he said, to consider giving drugs to pilots who had to control complex machines.

He also said the US air force seemed to be abrogating its responsibility by saying the use of the "fatigue management tools" was voluntary.

According to an air force report of the Kandahar mission, Maj Umbach observed fire on the ground and said: "I've got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us... I am rolling in, in self-defence."

Mr Beck told reporters the Canadians' night-time training mission should never have been undertaken. "How dare you do a training exercise at night in a combat zone?" he said. "And how dare you not tell the pilots?"

In another notorious incident in Afghanistan, the crew of an American AC130 gunship fired on a wedding party north of Kandahar last year killing an estimated 48 civilians.

During the 1991 Gulf war nine British soldiers were killed and 11 injured when the crew of an American A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft attacked their position.

Some links to more articles if you are interested:





http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/03/1041566229477.html

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/international.cfm?id=1418442002

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=366059

 

[Dreadsox]

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/03221609.htm

The article above.....is interesting.

To quote the article:

They were quietly reintroduced after being banned in 1992 by the then-Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Merrill McPeak.

"In my opinion, if you think you have to take a pill to face something that's tough, you're in the wrong business," McPeak said.

The network said there were reports during the Gulf War of American pilots becoming psychologically addicted to the "go pills" and their use now seriously concerns many leading drug addiction experts.



This really is disturbing. The General had it right! I wonder which president/general reintroduced it!

Peace

 

[Dreadsox]

The more I am reading, the more curious this whole thing becomes.

In another article, the Air force is quoted as saying, no one was forced to take the "Go Pills" yet there are also reports of pilots being stopped from flying by CO's if they did not take them.

THe unit to which to two pilots were members has a reputation for prescribing the "Go Pills" and their lawyer claims they were ordered to take them.

THis just is ugly.

Peace

 

[nbcrusader]

Remember the source - the pilot's lawyer stated that the pilots were ordered to take the drug.

 

[deep]

These four Canadians are dead.

How many innocent Afghanis?

How many European skiers?

How many Iranians air liner passengers?

How many Chinese embassy workers?

How many Japanese fishermen?


We all know 3200 people died on 9-11. Those deaths were intentional. The perpetrators should be brought to justice.

In the incidents listed above, the U S. military/government caused hundreds of deaths.

I am not qualified to judge the individuals involved. I don?t know all the details. The least we can do is pay compensation to the families, investigate and try and make sure it does not happen again.

The new Bush policy of preemptive action is very worrisome. If we can?t get it right - with a little restraint, how many more innocent lives will be lost when the trigger is pulled even quicker?

God help us.

 

[STING2]

Deep,

Interesting that you neglect to include US military personal who have been killed in friendly fire incendents by foreign military forces and by our own forces. Military training does have risk and the probability of error is never 0.

68 US Naval personal were killed in 1967 when the Israelies mistakenly fired on a US Frigate believing it was an Egyptian Frigate.

 

[STING2]

The Canadians, Europeans, Iranians, Chinese, and Japanese have all been involved in accidents that were their fault in the past. But its the USA that gets single out.

Accidents happen, mistakes are made. More needs to be done to reduce the probability of accidents, but there is no one on the planet that works harder to prevent accidents from happening than the US Military!

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

The Canadians, Europeans, Iranians, Chinese, and Japanese have all been involved in accidents that were their fault in the past. But its the USA that gets single out.

Accidents happen, mistakes are made. More needs to be done to reduce the probability of accidents, but there is no one on the planet that works harder to prevent accidents from happening than the US Military!

It's not that the US is being singled out as much as this is a thread which concerns the US military and not the Canadia, European, Iranian, Chinese or Japanese military.

And secondly, the articles posted here show that far from doing everything possible to avoid accidents, the actions of the US military in this case may have made accidents more not less likely.

 

[Dreadsox]

Remember the source - the pilot's lawyer stated that the pilots were ordered to take the drug.

Can't trust those lawyers!!!!!!

 

[STING2]

Fizzing,

I never said more couldn't be done, I said the US Military does more than anyone else to prevent accidents from happening.

The US military is being single out for accidents when the same accidents in fact happen with the other countries but there is not an uproar about it or threads about it.

 

[bonoman]

OK...is this not about the US giving their pilots drugs? Not about any other countries!

This is a disgrace if it is true...which seems likely...i knew one of these men. He drank in the same bar as i do. Marc Leger could sing a mean Led Zepelin!!! God rest their souls and we should get to the bottom of this!

I dont think what those two pilots did was totally attributable to the 'go pills'. Since they did radio base to ask for permison to attack and their base denied them twice. This is the pilots fault. But the 'go pills' still arent something that i perceive as a good thing. Sting why dont you comment on the issue and actually critize your gov't instead of defleting blame and always trying to defend?

 

[STING2]

The fact is that these type of things happen with or without drugs. I don't see anyone here expressing sympathy or concern for the US Army soldiers that were killed and injured in Kuwait last year when a US Airforce Jet mistakenly dropped bombs on the wrong position, in a training exercise. It was later found out that the foward observer made the mistake.

I am not sure how potent the type of drugs they were taking and whether they were the main factor in the accident or not.

I have not technically read enough about the case to render judgement. Reading a half page out of a magazine here and there I don't think is enough. Its easy to blame the pilots, but if they really felt like they were being fired on, there is a problem. Why were Canadian troops practicing a live fire exercise in a combat zone, at night?!?! Its to late to be brushing up on training once your actually in a combat zone. I have also heard the pilots were not told that friendly forces were in the area. I'm not sure but the blame could actually go around here, from the pilots to their comanding officer, to the policy and the use of drugs, to who ever approved or failed to get approval, for the Canadian unit to perform live combat training, at night, in a combat zone with potentially Al Quada and Taliban forces in the area. I have not examined the case enough to know precisely where most of or all the blame should fall.

Bonoman,

Look at Deep's statement that I initially responded too!!!!!! Is Deep's comment actually about the techinical aspects of the issue or a poor attempt to lable the US Military and Government as a trouble maker in this respect. Sorry, I'm not going to sit by and not comment on that distortion. I'm not deflecting blame or necessarily trying to defend any one particular case, just bringing some objectivity to the more "International Nature" of Deeps comments on the whole issue of "Friendly Fire" or accidents involving the military.

 

[Zoomerang96]

some people will never admit and say "they were wrong, im sorry, we'll do what we can to chance."

at least they looks so rediculous that others can point and laugh at them.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

not to hijack the thread, but what does "friendly fire" mean anyway? the first time i ever saw this phrase was when my husband was playing some game (counterstrike? i don't know, he plays too many games lol) and i have no idea what it means.

 

[Dreadsox]

WHile in principle, I disagree with giving soldiers drugs to stay awake......THere were some interesting facts which lead me to believe that the pills had ZERO to do with this incident.

From this article:

"At high doses, these drugs can create a toxic psychosis characterized by paranoid delusions, hallucinations, and frequently, aggressive or violent behaviour," a recent paper on amphetamines published by Canada's Addiction Research Foundation says.

The paper suggests that 60 milligrams is at the top end of what is considered the "therapeutic range." The pilots were well below that level.

The U.S. investigation found that Major Schmidt requested pills the day of the 14-hour flight, obtaining them about three hours after waking up. He took 10 mg of the pills while Major Umbach took five mg.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...al_temp/3/3/27/

 

[Popmartijn]

not to hijack the thread, but what does "friendly fire" mean anyway? the first time i ever saw this phrase was when my husband was playing some game (counterstrike? i don't know, he plays too many games lol) and i have no idea what it means.

Hello,

"Friendly fire" occurs when a military party is (accidentally) shooting at members belonging to his own party rather than the enemy. In this case, the USA and Canada (and others) are one party and the Taliban is the other (enemy). So instead of firing at the enemy, the soldiers were firing at their own allies, hence the term 'friendly fire' (as it is coming from your 'friends')

Hopefully this wasn't too chaotic...

Marty

 

[Salome]

WHile in principle, I disagree with giving soldiers drugs to stay awake......THere were some interesting facts which lead me to believe that the pills had ZERO to do with this incident.

I am only an auditor
but if I was using speed on the job and I would make a mistake that would cost a client a lot of money (only money mind you, we're not talking about human lives) I don't think many people would be interested whether the reason I made the mistake was because I'm on speed or not

I would lose my job
I would not be able to ever work as an auditor again
and I can't say that it would shock me

I'm aware the military can be compared to auditing (we're organized way too good ), but I can't think of any reason why there would be a difference on this issue

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

Hopefully this wasn't too chaotic...

thanks! it explained it perfectly.

 

[STING2]

Cow,

Was this:

"some people will never admit and say "they were wrong, im sorry, we'll do what we can to chance."

at least they looks so rediculous that others can point and laugh at them"

in reference to me?

 

[deep]

These four Canadians are dead.

How many innocent Afghanis?

How many European skiers?

How many Iranians air liner passengers?

How many Chinese embassy workers?

How many Japanese fishermen?


We all know 3200 people died on 9-11. Those deaths were intentional. The perpetrators should be brought to justice.

In the incidents listed above, the U S. military/government caused hundreds of deaths.

I am not qualified to judge the individuals involved. I don?t know all the details. The least we can do is pay compensation to the families, investigate and try and make sure it does not happen again.

The new Bush policy of preemptive action is very worrisome. If we can?t get it right - with a little restraint, how many more innocent lives will be lost when the trigger is pulled even quicker?

God help us.

Sting,

The purpose of my post was not to attack th U. S.

The defense of "go pills" is insignificant to the families and loved ones of the deceased.

 

[deep]

Deep,

Interesting that you neglect to include US military personal who have been killed in friendly fire incendents by foreign military forces and by our own forces. Military training does have risk and the probability of error is never 0.

68 US Naval personal were killed in 1967 when the Israelies mistakenly fired on a US Frigate believing it was an Egyptian Frigate.

Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc.

It is more complicated for them.

In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings.

 

[DebbieSG]

WHile in principle, I disagree with giving soldiers drugs to stay awake......THere were some interesting facts which lead me to believe that the pills had ZERO to do with this incident.

From this article:

"At high doses, these drugs can create a toxic psychosis characterized by paranoid delusions, hallucinations, and frequently, aggressive or violent behaviour," a recent paper on amphetamines published by Canada's Addiction Research Foundation says.

The paper suggests that 60 milligrams is at the top end of what is considered the "therapeutic range." The pilots were well below that level.

The U.S. investigation found that Major Schmidt requested pills the day of the 14-hour flight, obtaining them about three hours after waking up. He took 10 mg of the pills while Major Umbach took five mg.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...al_temp/3/3/27/

Dreadsox,
thanks for all the links here!

if the drugs are so low as to be harmless, are they also so low they don't do anything?

people have different responses to drugs, that may have been a high dose for that person...you know how the alchohol blood level charts go.

which leads me to what deep said about the victims families not caring that there was drugs involved. Same could be said for victims of car crashes here in America due to drunk drivers. The drivers, if they survive, get charged with manslaughter. But we also take very seriously people's choices to get behind the wheel after drinking, even a little. There is a huge campaign, and it started grass roots (Mothers against drunk driving, MADD) to get at the culture of drinking and driving. People get angry the person was drinking, not that they had an accident; obviously they couldn't react properly inebriated. Can you see the subtle difference of blame? I think the pilots are not going to get off, they will be punished, because the army would rather let them fall then get charged with overall negligence.

Americans are famous for friendly fire. I remember reading a story during Desert storm, where we had few battle casualties, but an entire troop fell sick (and probably chronically) when we blew up a chemical plant, only it all the poison blew downwind on their camp. We make mistakes, we have accidents. Two girls get run over in Korea, its an international incident. The modern world is dangerous, and war makes it more so. I'm sure the ROW will be busy decrying any of these attacks while innocent people are being blown up by suicide bombers in Israeli cafes, and the world is silent.

But heres my real complaint:
the "dextro amphetamine" drugs are CONTRABAND on the street, they are used for kids who's brain wiring is messed up and can't sit still. I know, i teach some. Likely they do distort judgement and produce aggression, even in small amounts, for regular people, and you have to have absolute precise judgement to fly a fighter plane.

"However the drug is not supposed to be used for combat missions, because of the possibility it could impair the judgment of pilots" says the Scotsman

and, exactly what that general, who once got them banned (and he must have had some reason) said, that if you can't stay awake, you shouldn't be out there...

so why is the airforce forcing such erratic flight schedules, that the airmen are fatigued, that is another puzzle.

pilots were (and probably are again) getting addicted to these drugs. Its like all the drugs athletes are taking, they feel the pressure to take them if they want to keep their jobs, maybe

meanwhile, back at home, we are being treated to a lovely melodramatic ad campaign, started right after 9/11, telling us that if we buy drugs we are supporting terrorists.

there is a beautiful irony here, if you would stop the nationalistic bickering you might find a good laugh here. lighten up, ok, bitterness doesn't solve problems.

 

[STING2]

Deep,

If your only concerned with the technical issues involving the friendly fire accident that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and not interested in attacking the US military and political officials, why are you bringing up:

"innocent Afghanis"

"European Skiers"

"Iranian Air Liner passengers"

"Chinese Embassy Workers"

"Japanese Fisherman"

Then talking about Bush's policy of pre-emption which to a certain degree has always been US policy and is not an abandonment of other strategies at all.

If your only concerned about the technical aspects of this specific case, don't bring in other things that have nothing to do with it, and select them in away that is so obviously anti-US military.

 

[STING2]

"Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc."

"It is more complicated for them."

"In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings."

This should read: Terrorist like Humas, Hezbolah, other Palestinian groups, and Al Quada have a terrible record of targeting and killing innocent people and then hiding among innocent civilians so as to cause the deaths of even more civilians when the military attempts to catch or kill them.

Its not very complicated for the terrorist.

In the West we rarely hear the fact that terrorist cause most of the deaths that are blamed on Israely soldiers because they cowardly try to blend in with the civilian population. For them its a two stage process. Cause civilian deaths, then get Israely security to come after you and try and catch or kill you while your in close proximity to other civilians there by causing even more deaths.

At Jenin where the Western media initially reported that 1,000 to 7,000 civilians died, it was later confirmed that only 48 civilians were killed which is what the IDF had claimed all along. Of course none of them would have been killed if the terrorist had not chosen the center of the city to make their base.

 

[Zoomerang96]

sting, when i make comments, i try and place them against the highest power.

in this case, im pointing the finger at the american government/propaganda machine that has not given this case the time of day.

ofcourse, the "time of day" is subjective, particularly if you compare summer and winter day light times...

 

[pub crawler]

Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc.

It is more complicated for them.

In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings.

Er, deep, if this is true (and I don't doubt it is), I'd advise you not to say such a thing publicly. It is VERY politically incorrect and pretty much considered un-American.

 

[STING2]

They have given it more time than the friendly fire incident that happened in Kuwait last year.