The need for speed - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-03-2003, 11:00 PM   #1
Refugee
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Castro Valley, CA
Posts: 997
Local Time: 09:45 AM
The need for speed

I saw this on TV, so I can't refer you to a real article, but this is shocking! They found that the pilots who accidentally shot down the four Canadians were taking speed, something they often do to reduce fatigue.

So here we have a government who allows illicit drugs for its servicemen, but outlaws medical marijuana.

Be found with an ounce of anything, you get 20 years in prison (maybe i'm exagerating here), but fly in the airforce, and that's fine, you may need it.

We're fighting a war on drugs, but they allow same drugs in our war...well they were all over vietnam, too...

Don't operate heavy machinery when taking cough medicine, but million dollar airplanes are ok with crank

junkies may have a new out here...


Should I go on? The worst is that it really does put people in danger and some have been killed. US Army, just say no!
__________________

__________________
DebbieSG is offline  
Old 01-03-2003, 11:05 PM   #2
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,332
Local Time: 01:45 AM
Our government was trafficking heroin during the Vietnam War.
__________________

__________________
martha is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 10:52 AM   #3
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 10:45 AM
yep, I read about that
didn't want to believe it though
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is online now  
Old 01-04-2003, 03:12 PM   #4
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:45 AM
US pilots blame drug for friendly fire deaths

Oliver Burkeman in New York and Richard Norton-Taylor
Saturday January 4, 2003
The Guardian

Two American fighter pilots facing trial for the "friendly fire" killings of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan last April were pressured by the US air force into taking amphetamines that may have impaired their judgment, their lawyers allege.
Pilots are routinely pressured to take dextroamphetamine - known to the troops as "go pills" - in order to keep them alert on irregular schedules and night flights, their lawyer, David Beck, said, in advance of a hearing to decide whether Major Harry Schmidt and Major William Umbach should be court-martialled.

The air force conceded that low doses of the drug, manufactured as Dexedrine, had been offered to pilots since the second world war. It insisted the drug was safe and its use was voluntary as part of a "fatigue management program". But a former British assistant chief of defence staff called the policy "very odd".

Maj Schmidt, 37, and Maj Umbach, 43, could each receive 64 years in military prison. They are accused of involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and dereliction of duty for the incident on April 17, when Maj Schmidt, flying a night mission with Maj Umbach, dropped a laser-guided bomb from his F-16 on Canadian forces training at a former al-Qaida training camp.

Marc Leger, Ainsworth Dyer, Richard Green and Nathan Smith were killed instantly, stoking opposition to the war in Canada, which had not suffered deaths in combat since the Korean war. The US air force said the pilots "demonstrated poor airmanship", failing to check that no friendly troops were in the area.

GlaxoSmithKline, which makes Dexedrine, warns that the drug "may impair the patient's ability to engage in potentially hazardous activity such as operating machines and vehicles and that patients should be cautioned accordingly," Charles Gittins, Maj Schmidt's lawyer, told the Guardian. "Well, the pilots weren't cautioned accordingly. They weren't even told about that."

Mr Gittins, himself a former pilot in the marines, denied the air force's claim that no pressure was exerted.

"All you have to do is read the quote-unquote informed consent, and it basically says, if you don't take them, you'll be grounded."

The air force refused to comment on the details of the case, and said it had never received any other report of the drug contributing to accidents, while fatigue had contributed to nearly 100. "No one is forced to take these drugs," Colonel Alvina Mitchell, chief of media operations, told Reuters.

The RAF does not give amphetamines to its pilots, the Ministry of Defence said yesterday.

The US air force practice was described as "very odd" by Air Marshal Sir Tim Garden, a former pilot and assistant chief of defence staff.

It was strange, he said, to consider giving drugs to pilots who had to control complex machines.

He also said the US air force seemed to be abrogating its responsibility by saying the use of the "fatigue management tools" was voluntary.

According to an air force report of the Kandahar mission, Maj Umbach observed fire on the ground and said: "I've got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us... I am rolling in, in self-defence."

Mr Beck told reporters the Canadians' night-time training mission should never have been undertaken. "How dare you do a training exercise at night in a combat zone?" he said. "And how dare you not tell the pilots?"

In another notorious incident in Afghanistan, the crew of an American AC130 gunship fired on a wedding party north of Kandahar last year killing an estimated 48 civilians.

During the 1991 Gulf war nine British soldiers were killed and 11 injured when the crew of an American A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft attacked their position.

Some links to more articles if you are interested:





http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...566229477.html

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/interna...?id=1418442002

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=366059
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 03:23 PM   #5
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:45 AM
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/03221609.htm

The article above.....is interesting.

To quote the article:

They were quietly reintroduced after being banned in 1992 by the then-Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Merrill McPeak.

"In my opinion, if you think you have to take a pill to face something that's tough, you're in the wrong business," McPeak said.

The network said there were reports during the Gulf War of American pilots becoming psychologically addicted to the "go pills" and their use now seriously concerns many leading drug addiction experts.



This really is disturbing. The General had it right! I wonder which president/general reintroduced it!

Peace
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 03:29 PM   #6
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:45 AM
The more I am reading, the more curious this whole thing becomes.

In another article, the Air force is quoted as saying, no one was forced to take the "Go Pills" yet there are also reports of pilots being stopped from flying by CO's if they did not take them.

THe unit to which to two pilots were members has a reputation for prescribing the "Go Pills" and their lawyer claims they were ordered to take them.

THis just is ugly.

Peace
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 04:25 PM   #7
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 01:45 AM
Remember the source - the pilot's lawyer stated that the pilots were ordered to take the drug.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 04:56 PM   #8
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 01:45 AM
These four Canadians are dead.

How many innocent Afghanis?

How many European skiers?

How many Iranians air liner passengers?

How many Chinese embassy workers?

How many Japanese fishermen?


We all know 3200 people died on 9-11. Those deaths were intentional. The perpetrators should be brought to justice.

In the incidents listed above, the U S. military/government caused hundreds of deaths.

I am not qualified to judge the individuals involved. I dont know all the details. The least we can do is pay compensation to the families, investigate and try and make sure it does not happen again.

The new Bush policy of preemptive action is very worrisome. If we cant get it right - with a little restraint, how many more innocent lives will be lost when the trigger is pulled even quicker?

God help us.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 05:10 PM   #9
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 09:45 AM
Deep,

Interesting that you neglect to include US military personal who have been killed in friendly fire incendents by foreign military forces and by our own forces. Military training does have risk and the probability of error is never 0.

68 US Naval personal were killed in 1967 when the Israelies mistakenly fired on a US Frigate believing it was an Egyptian Frigate.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 05:16 PM   #10
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 09:45 AM
The Canadians, Europeans, Iranians, Chinese, and Japanese have all been involved in accidents that were their fault in the past. But its the USA that gets single out.

Accidents happen, mistakes are made. More needs to be done to reduce the probability of accidents, but there is no one on the planet that works harder to prevent accidents from happening than the US Military!
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 06:21 PM   #11
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
The Canadians, Europeans, Iranians, Chinese, and Japanese have all been involved in accidents that were their fault in the past. But its the USA that gets single out.

Accidents happen, mistakes are made. More needs to be done to reduce the probability of accidents, but there is no one on the planet that works harder to prevent accidents from happening than the US Military!
It's not that the US is being singled out as much as this is a thread which concerns the US military and not the Canadia, European, Iranian, Chinese or Japanese military.

And secondly, the articles posted here show that far from doing everything possible to avoid accidents, the actions of the US military in this case may have made accidents more not less likely.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 01-04-2003, 09:52 PM   #12
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Remember the source - the pilot's lawyer stated that the pilots were ordered to take the drug.
Can't trust those lawyers!!!!!!

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-05-2003, 12:02 AM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 09:45 AM
Fizzing,

I never said more couldn't be done, I said the US Military does more than anyone else to prevent accidents from happening.

The US military is being single out for accidents when the same accidents in fact happen with the other countries but there is not an uproar about it or threads about it.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 01-05-2003, 01:55 AM   #14
Refugee
 
bonoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Edmonton, Canada- Charlestown, Ireland
Posts: 1,398
Local Time: 02:45 AM
OK...is this not about the US giving their pilots drugs? Not about any other countries!

This is a disgrace if it is true...which seems likely...i knew one of these men. He drank in the same bar as i do. Marc Leger could sing a mean Led Zepelin!!! God rest their souls and we should get to the bottom of this!

I dont think what those two pilots did was totally attributable to the 'go pills'. Since they did radio base to ask for permison to attack and their base denied them twice. This is the pilots fault. But the 'go pills' still arent something that i perceive as a good thing. Sting why dont you comment on the issue and actually critize your gov't instead of defleting blame and always trying to defend?
__________________
bonoman is offline  
Old 01-05-2003, 03:14 AM   #15
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 09:45 AM
The fact is that these type of things happen with or without drugs. I don't see anyone here expressing sympathy or concern for the US Army soldiers that were killed and injured in Kuwait last year when a US Airforce Jet mistakenly dropped bombs on the wrong position, in a training exercise. It was later found out that the foward observer made the mistake.

I am not sure how potent the type of drugs they were taking and whether they were the main factor in the accident or not.

I have not technically read enough about the case to render judgement. Reading a half page out of a magazine here and there I don't think is enough. Its easy to blame the pilots, but if they really felt like they were being fired on, there is a problem. Why were Canadian troops practicing a live fire exercise in a combat zone, at night?!?! Its to late to be brushing up on training once your actually in a combat zone. I have also heard the pilots were not told that friendly forces were in the area. I'm not sure but the blame could actually go around here, from the pilots to their comanding officer, to the policy and the use of drugs, to who ever approved or failed to get approval, for the Canadian unit to perform live combat training, at night, in a combat zone with potentially Al Quada and Taliban forces in the area. I have not examined the case enough to know precisely where most of or all the blame should fall.

Bonoman,

Look at Deep's statement that I initially responded too!!!!!! Is Deep's comment actually about the techinical aspects of the issue or a poor attempt to lable the US Military and Government as a trouble maker in this respect. Sorry, I'm not going to sit by and not comment on that distortion. I'm not deflecting blame or necessarily trying to defend any one particular case, just bringing some objectivity to the more "International Nature" of Deeps comments on the whole issue of "Friendly Fire" or accidents involving the military.
__________________

__________________
STING2 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com