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Old 07-26-2006, 07:55 PM   #31
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No doubt there would have been many Christians in the Nazi movement. But one major point is that organized religion, including Christianity, wasn't looked upon favourably by the Nazi heirarchy. Clergymen were thrown into concentration camps, there was a special clergymen section of Dachau. Jehovah's Witnesses made up a significant portion of the camp of Ravensbruck, as well as in other camps. They appropriated religious symbols for their own benefit and ended up giving them new meanings (most prominent example being the swastika).




That's all I can think of to say right now, I'll try and find some more info about this cos it can be quite a grey area!
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:55 PM   #32
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well, then i could argue that terrorists who wage the so-called 'jihad' are not muslims either. would you then refrain from referring to them as muslims? i dont think so.
My point is that anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet has a life that is characterized by actions that are the exact opposite of what Christians are taught to do should have his "Christianity" in doubt.

For the record, I never said that the terrorists are Muslims. However, the Koran teaches different things about how to treat non-Muslims, so which way do you say is the way that Muslims are supposed to treat non-Muslims?
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:01 PM   #33
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


BVS, in the post to which I was responding, you said:

"I can't stand those that claim that the hatred spread by Christianity is a manipulated view, yet the hate spread by the Muslim religion is true."

That was in response to my assertion that Hitler had a distorted view of Christianity.

Surely, you won't sit there and tell me that you don't see why I failed to see that you were "agreeing" with me.
What did I say before that?

Quote:
Here's the ultimate problem with all public religion. It's all distrorted view, some more than others, but it's all distorted.
Separate paragraphs. One being a thought agreeing with you, and then the other an example...

I apologize for bringing in the other thread I should know better.
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:07 PM   #34
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


For the record, I never said that the terrorists are Muslims. However, the Koran teaches different things about how to treat non-Muslims, so which way do you say is the way that Muslims are supposed to treat non-Muslims?
See this is exactly what I'm talking about.

You speak this as if you know in absolution.

Expert theologians within Christianity still don't agree 100% on many issues of Christianity. These are people who've devoted their lives to studying the Bible.

So how is that you a non expert of the Muslim religion can make such an absolute statement? The Bible just like the Koran has many statements when taken out of context has teachings of how to treat those non-beilievers...
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:14 PM   #35
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"... (3) Sex between men is "frowned upon, but accepted" so long as the participants also marry and have children; and also if they keep quiet about this activity. (4) The key distinction is not hetero vs. homosexual but active vs. passive; men are expected to seek penetration (with wives, prostitutes, other males, animals); the only real shame is attached to serving in the female role. (5) Youths usually serve in the female role and can leave behind this shame by graduating to the male role. (6) The great Muslim emphasis on family life renders homosexuality far less threatening to Muslim societies than to Western ones (Muslim men seeking formally to marry each other remains unimaginable)."




sounds like the Republican Party.

but in all seriousness, very good post. it's nothing to do with homosexuality, let alone a gay identity, and everything to do with power and domination.
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:38 PM   #36
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Here's a link to an article about Nazism's relationship with Islam and Bosnia:

ISLAM UNDER THE SWASTIKA:
The Grand Mufti and the Nazi Protectorate of Bosnia-Hercegovina, 1941-1945
By Carl K. Savich
Link


I haven't had the chance to read it all yet so it could be biased etc, but from what I've seen it's pretty informative.

Here's the titles of some books about Nazism and Christianity:

The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945
By Richard Steigmann-Gall

Nazi Persecution of the Churches, 1933-45
By J S Conway

The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany
By Guenter Lewy


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Old 07-26-2006, 09:01 PM   #37
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
So how is that you a non expert of the Muslim religion can make such an absolute statement? The Bible just like the Koran has many statements when taken out of context has teachings of how to treat those non-beilievers...
Alright, I'll rephrase for you.

"Based on the verses that I have read, the Koran appears to teach different things regarding how to treat non-Muslims."
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:06 PM   #38
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


The Bible just like the Koran has many statements when taken out of context has teachings of how to treat those non-beilievers...
Yes, the Bible does tell Christions how to treat nonChristians. With love, praying for them, etc. There is not a verse in the entire Bible that tells Christians to behave violently toward nonChristians.

In the Old Testament, there are instances in which God tells the Israelites to take over certain lands by violent methods. However, it is always a specific group of people in a specific situation at a specific time. There are no blanket, general "kill unbelievers" type of statement.
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:09 PM   #39
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Nazism is a funny quirk of 20th century philosophy, because, unlike what many would think, Hitler was widely adored in the 1930s as a "success story." He was even the darling of many Americans, because he was building a strong economy that was, most importantly, the exact opposite of communism. The fact that he was unabashedly anti-communist made him many friends in those days.

Anti-Semitism in those years before WWII was brushed aside the same way that people today brush aside homophobia. That is, it was so common and an integral part of Western cultural tradition that it was seen as "normal." Of course, it's not that Americans were looking the other way when it came to concentration camps; most people didn't know about them until the end of WWII.

But, really, that pre-war, 1930s Nazi adoration has generally come back to haunt us, in the end. I'm not entirely convinced of the argument that Nazis directly influenced Muslims into their ideology. I say this, because Nazis would have had as much contempt for Muslims as they would have had for other minorities. They're certainly not a group of blond-haired, blue eyed ├╝bermensch. But it's easy to see why fascist ideology would appeal to many Muslim extremists today, as it gives them outside justification for their deep seated anti-Semitism. And it's not just Nazism; the infamous book, "The Protocols of Zion," was written during tsarist Russia, and that book has very large sway in the Muslim world.

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Old 07-26-2006, 09:18 PM   #40
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Jesus was definitely a Jew
Jesus may have been born a Jew
but he did not die a Jew

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

If Jesus is a Jew, than he went to hell.

Where all Jews that do not convert to Christ go,
Just ask any Christian.
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:26 PM   #41
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I'm keeping my fingers crossed that there is a class on the Koran in the philosophy department at the local university that I'll be attending in the fall. I haven't seen a list of classes yet. I'd love to take a class on the Koran. I tend to be unfocused when I undertake to study something on my own, that's the main reason I'm going back to school. It takes a professor giving assignments to make me focus.
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:39 PM   #42
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Originally posted by deep


Jesus may have been born a Jew
but he did not die a Jew

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

If Jesus is a Jew, than he went to hell.

Where all Jews that do not convert to Christ go,
Just ask any Christian.
Yes, Jesus did die as a Jew. Nothing happened in his life that would have changed that. He did not stop being a Jew, just as his disciples did not stop being Jews when they decided to follow him. There were no Christians until after Christ's resurrection.

Also, there are many Jews who are Christians. They are called Messianic Jews.
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:09 PM   #43
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Yes, the Bible does tell Christions how to treat nonChristians. With love, praying for them, etc. There is not a verse in the entire Bible that tells Christians to behave violently toward nonChristians.

This isn't true, there are a handful of verses when just looking at one verse and not context that do encourage violent actions toward non-believers. They've been posted in at least two different threads in here, and honestly don't have time to look them up right now, but they are there.
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Old 07-26-2006, 11:28 PM   #44
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This isn't true, there are a handful of verses when just looking at one verse and not context that do encourage violent actions toward non-believers. They've been posted in at least two different threads in here, and honestly don't have time to look them up right now, but they are there.
There are verses that tell Christians to behave violently toward nonChristians? Are you sure about that? I would be interested to see that, because I can tell you that as many years as I have been reading the Bible, I have never read those verses. Now remember, I am not talking about the times before Christ in whcih God told Israel to take over lands or conquer their enemies by violent methods. I am specifically talking about commands to Christians, which is of course, the New Testament.
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Old 07-26-2006, 11:36 PM   #45
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


For the record, I never said that the terrorists are Muslims. However, the Koran teaches different things about how to treat non-Muslims, so which way do you say is the way that Muslims are supposed to treat non-Muslims?
This topic was covered extensively in a thread couple weeks ago that, i believe, Aeon had started (and we had all so desperately wanted an expert on Islam to provide information on some of the de-contexualized Koranic verses that were being used).

In short, the Koranic sayings against the "unbelievers" are within the context of war: if Moslems are being attacked.

Koran calls Christians and Jews "people of the book"...brothers, though it says their religions have become distorted from what they ought to be (i.e. there's one message from God; Islam is the same...though it hasn't been corrupted; but, of course, every religion says that about itself, so it's all very self-serving).

Koran says Moslems are allowed to marry Christians and Jews and the Christians and Jews don't have to convert to Islam. When i married my white, American, Christian wife (i'm originally from Pakistan; a Moslem...former...now an athiest), the Imam said to her there's no need for conversion. All she can't do is deny Islam as the word of God.

Of course, there's many episodes in history where Moslem rulers have not been tolerant...and many others where they have been.

Whatever...this is a long, complex topic, that we've all visited before. I don't feel like going there right now.
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