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Old 10-10-2006, 12:56 PM   #31
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Actually, according to the Bible, you are incorrect. The crowd that had gathered outside Pilate's palace was indeed crying out for Christ's crucifixion.

Christ was popular with the people at first, but the religious leaders stirred up people's anger against him.
How do the attitudes of "the crowd that had gathered outside Pilate's palace" equate to the attitudes of "the Jewish people," period? There were roughly 4 million Jews in the world at that time. You make it sound as if we're the Borg or something--to know one is to know all, unless individual opinions to the contrary are explicitly confirmed as having been stated.
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:53 PM   #32
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Originally posted by yolland

How do the attitudes of "the crowd that had gathered outside Pilate's palace" equate to the attitudes of "the Jewish people," period? There were roughly 4 million Jews in the world at that time. You make it sound as if we're the Borg or something--to know one is to know all, unless individual opinions to the contrary are explicitly confirmed as having been stated.
Individually, there were many people who followed Christ, of course. However, according to the new Testament, the Jews who were around Jesus at the time -as a whole- did turn against him.

John 5: 16-18

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

If Jesus had appeared to any other group, that group would also have rejected Jesus.

The Jews did not take the life of Jesus Christ. Neither did the Romans. Christ gave his life willingly, so that we might be saved through him.
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Old 10-10-2006, 02:57 PM   #33
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According to the Bible, you are wrong.

First, Jesus is alive today.

Secondly, I was going to bring up the nature of Christ's second coming and how it will be impossible for his children not to know him, but I really do not need to go into great detail on that.

Physically Jesus is not alive today. I'm speaking strictly physical terms here.

And if you notice I did put Christians in quotes. For you can't tell me that as many "christians" who fall under the spells of false prophets such as the Faldwells, Robertsons, Bakers, and the like that it's going to be THAT easy.

Many are going to reject a Jesus that tells us to love our neighbor, love our enemy, denouce the worship of captialism, and doesn't cast aside homosexuals.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:01 PM   #34
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
John 5: 16-18

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
..............................................
The Jews did not take the life of Jesus Christ. Neither did the Romans. Christ gave his life willingly, so that we might be saved through him.
He may well have given his life willingly but someone was still guilty of taking it for what were likely trumped-up reasons, I've no problem with that. In my view, the fact that the text makes the generalization "the Jews" to begin with ought to give one pause, and it isn't logical to assume on such basis that every Jew who encountered Jesus at some time or another must therefore have supported his crucifixion. Furthermore, violating the Sabbath was not a capital crime, neither was calling God one's "Father" (as the Psalms say of David) if the Tetragrammaton was not invoked; anyone who "sought to kill" someone on these bases was not acting in accord with Jewish law, and in any case even if they were it would've been moot, since as I've mentioned elsewhere the Sanhedrin did not have capital-crimes jurisdiction in Roman Judaea and the Romans did not regard Jewish law violations as valid bases for prescribing capital punishment. In fact, the Pharisees under Hillel had already pushed through the Sanhedrin a reform making it legal to violate the Sabbath moratorium on work to share food with the poor and to minister to the sick, as Jesus does in John 5 which you quoted. Preaching on Sabbath was, of course, always permissible.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:08 PM   #35
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Physically Jesus is not alive today. I'm speaking strictly physical terms here.

And if you notice I did put Christians in quotes. For you can't tell me that as many "christians" who fall under the spells of false prophets such as the Faldwells, Robertsons, Bakers, and the like that it's going to be THAT easy.

Many are going to reject a Jesus that tells us to love our neighbor, love our enemy, denouce the worship of captialism, and doesn't cast aside homosexuals.
Wow. I strongly agree with BVS. In many ways, being a "Christian" has nothing to do with following Christ for a lot of people. It's a club. It's a political belief system.

It's sickening.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:16 PM   #36
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Wow. I strongly agree with BVS. In many ways, being a "Christian" has nothing to do with following Christ for a lot of people. It's a club. It's a political belief system.

It's sickening.
Yes, there are many people who call themselves "Christian" who don't even know what it means to be a Christian; ie: they think that being a church-goer makes them a Christian. But I'm talking about Christians. And there is no getting around the fact that Jesus said that his followers know him and know his voice.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:18 PM   #37
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Physically Jesus is not alive today. I'm speaking strictly physical terms here.
He is physically alive. Christ was resurrected physically and he still has a physical body.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:22 PM   #38
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Originally posted by yolland

it isn't logical to assume on such basis that every Jew who encountered Jesus at some time or another must therefore have supported his crucifixion.
I didn't make that assumption. I even said that some Jews did follow him. Heck, all the disciples were Jews, as were his other friends and family.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:25 PM   #39
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Not "following" someone and seeking to have them put to death are two very different things. It is the latter assumption I was speaking of.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:27 PM   #40
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and he still has a physical body.
Where is he? Kinda contradicts the second coming, doesn't it?
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:28 PM   #41
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Where is he? Kinda contradicts the second coming, doesn't it?
I didn't say he's on the earth. He is sitting at the right hand of his Father. But he is physically alive.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:30 PM   #42
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Not "following" someone and seeking to have them put to death are two very different things. It is the latter assumption I was speaking of.
Now that I think of it, I have to admit the possibility that "The Jews sought to kill him" may have been specifically referring to the bulk of the religious leaders and not the bulk of the average Jewish population.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:33 PM   #43
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I didn't say he's on the earth. He is sitting at the right hand of his Father. But he is physically alive.
Well this is where you and I have disagreeing views of heaven. I don't believe we have physical bodies in heaven.
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Old 10-10-2006, 04:15 PM   #44
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
"The Jews sought to kill him" may have been specifically referring to the bulk of the religious leaders and not the bulk of the average Jewish population.
Perhaps, though if by "bulk of the religious leaders" you mean the Sanhedrin--and who knows whom the average person might have deemed worthy of the title "our religious leaders"--it doesn't seem likely, based on the various Passion accounts, that a full Sanhedrin assembly (71 members) was in fact gathered to pursue that in the end. Of course there were likely malevolent "religious leaders" outside the Sanhedrin as well, but who knows who they might have been or what their numbers might have been like.

However, I am appreciative that you acknowledge the possibility.

Getting back to the topic of the movie...I don't think a portrayal of Herod and his court as evil men should in itself provoke much controversy; Herod is definitely remembered as a cruel and loathsome despot in Jewish history as well as Christian history. And his cruelty certainly extended to the "Jewish leaders" of his time--Herod's first act in power was to have 69 of the Sanhedrin's 71 members executed, then to pack its ranks with men favorable to (or at least duly afraid of) him, a strategy which would be employed to varying degrees by subsequent Roman rulers as well (and Herod was definitely a Roman ruler, politically speaking--it was the Roman Senate who appointed him king). And his sons, among whom Rome divided the various Judaean provinces upon his death (over the pleas of a deputation of 50 priests and rabbis dispatched to Rome by the Sanhedrin to request otherwise), are likewise remembered unfavorably. Although the slayings of male babies in and around Bethlehem recounted in the Gospel of Matthew are not mentioned anywhere else, it doesn't seem out of character with Herod's homicidal paranoia generally (he also had his second wife, three of his sons, his mother-in-law, his uncle, and a later High Priest axed, not to mention the leaders of the numerous rebellions against him), and especially since Bethlehem was a small place and the ultimate number of children allegedly thus killed not likely very high, it would not be particularly surprising if such an incident simply got lost amidst the general bloodiness of his rule. Incidentally, most of Herod's closest advisors and financiers were Greeks, as he was quite the Hellenophile and frequently made logrolling-ish contributions to the Olympic Games and to constructions of public monuments in other countries of the Roman Empire, which likely did nothing to help his image with his subjects.
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Old 10-10-2006, 05:00 PM   #45
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Well this is where you and I have disagreeing views of heaven. I don't believe we have physical bodies in heaven.
Christ was raised physically from the dead. He had a physical body. So where did that body go when he ascended unto Heaven? Why would he lose it?

As for those who are in Heaven now? I don't believe they currently have physical bodies. And they won't ever have the same physical bodies they had while on earth. But the Bible says that people will have glorified (perfect) physical bodies in Heaven after Christ's Second Coming.
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