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Old 10-18-2004, 06:49 PM   #16
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Man of his time or not, Che is a (the word rhymes with stunt) and nothing will change my opinion on the matter.
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Old 10-18-2004, 07:38 PM   #17
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Not even the possibility of an open mind? That's sad. Not sad, calling you names, but sad as in

Very interesting comparison to Michael Collins. They so seem to be similar figures. Hmmm. Thanks for that!

I think Che's idealized for a lot of reasons, a few of them valid, some of them not. He certain had the courage of his convictions and I have to believe that he believed he was fighting for the downtrodden, the poor, etc. I that sense, I share his ideals. Frankly I think his sense of moral outrage rings true.

On the other hand, we're also talking about a man who had people executed on behalf of Castro. How he reconciled that with the beautiful ideals he professed, or what it was that made him think Castro had ANYthing to do with human dignity, freedom or justice is beyond baffling to me. Was he that stupid? That blinded by Castro's rhetoric? Carried away by revolutionary zeal? Who knows? But I sure can't applaud. Hell no!

John Lennon put it beautifully:

You say you want a revoltuion
well you know, we all want to change to world....
but if you want money for people with minds that hate
all I can tell you is, brother, you'll have to wait

SD
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Old 10-18-2004, 07:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
That blinded by Castro's rhetoric?
Perhaps in the beginning, but Castro is the main reason Che left Cuba as the two had a number of differences once Castro rose to power.

I have the goodbye letter Che wrote to Castro (you can buy copies of it in Cuba - beautiful country to visit, btw). He did have a way with words. In the letter, you can tell he had a great respect for Castro, but also took great care to distance himself from Cuba, because of the inner struggles that took place then and the fact that it was Castro who essentially forced him out when Che became a political liability.

Quote:
Habana
Year of Agriculture

Fidel:

At this moment I remember many things - when I met you in Maria Antonia's house, when you suggested me coming, all the tension involved in the preparations.

One day they asked who should be notified in case of death, and the real possibility of that fact affected all. Later we knew that it was true, that in revolution one wins or dies (if it is a real one). Many comrades fell along the way to victory.

Today everything is less dramatic because we are more mature. But the fact is repeated I feel that I have fulfilled the part of my duty that tied me to the Cuban Revolution in its territory, and I say good-bye to you, the Comrades, your people, who are already mine.

I formally renounce my position in the National Leadership of the Party, my post as Minister, my rank of Major, and my Cuban citizenship. Nothing legal binds me to Cuba. The only ties are of another nature; those which cannot be broken as appointments can.

Recalling my past life, I believe I have worked with sufficient honor and dedication to consolidate the revolutionary triumph. My only serious failing was not having confided more in you from the first moment in the Sierra Maestra, and not having understood quickly enough your qualities as a leader and a revolutionary.

I have lived magnificent days and I felt at your side the pride of belonging to our people in the brilliant yet sad days of the Caribbean Crisis.

Few times has a statesman been more brilliant than you in those days. I am also proud of having followed you without hesitation, identifying myself with your way of thinking and of appraising dangers and principles.

Other nations of the world call for my modest efforts. I can do that which is denied you because of your responsibility at the head of Cuba, and the time has come for us to part.

I want it known that I do it with mixed feelings of joy and sorrow: I leave here the purest of my hopes as a builder, and the dearest of those I love. And I leave people that received me as a son. That wounds me deeply. I carry to new battlefronts the faith that you taught me, the revolutionary spirit of my people, the feeling of fulfilling the most sacred of duties: to fight against imperialism wherever I may be. This comforts and heals the deepest wounds.

I state once more that I free Cuba from any responsibility, except that which stems from its example. If my final hour finds me under other skies, my last thought will be of this peope and especially of you. I am thankful for your teaching, your example, and I will try to be faithful to the final consequence of my acts. I have always been identified with the foreign policy of our Revolution, and I will continue to be. Wherever I am, I will feel the responsibility of being a Cuban revolutionary and as such I shall behave. I am not sorry that I leave my children and my wife nothing material. I am happy it is that way. I ask nothing for them, as I know the State will provide enough for their expenses and education.

I would like to say much to you and to our people, but I feel it is not necessary. Words cannot express what I would want them to, and I don't think it's worthwhile to banter phrases.

Onward to victory always. Patria o Muerte!

I embrace you with all my revolutionary fervor,

Che

I think SD is right when she says he got carried away with revolutionary zeal. There are admirable things he believed in, and there are terrible things he also did. So, as I said, he is a man of his time and his life is best understood in that revolutionary context.
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:40 PM   #19
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IMHO, it is dangerous to so flippantly excuse Che for his deeds. So what if he believed he was helpig the poor? His deeds did not match up with his words so he simply falls into the same category as the other miserable Commuists who have much more blood on their hands than their enemies-Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc. Now I know that no one in here is saying that it was ok for Che to do it, but why is Che and other Communists allowed off the hook so easily? Bush allows the execution of murders in Texas and is roasted while Che is responsible in some way or other for the tragic bloodshed in Latin America for a couple of decades and gets a slap on the wrist. There does not appear to be any consistency here.

Anyway, for more info on Che and the misdeeds of his fellow Communists I recommend the Black Book of Communism printed by Harvard University Press and not some fanatical fascist press as some might imagine. It is a scholarly look at the horrible crimes and repression of Communist regimes in the 20th century. It also asks why intellectuals in academia are so prone to excuse and overlook the crimes of Communists while only focusing on the outrages of fascism. Though it is a bit lengthy (800 or so pages), it is divided into regions with much of the focus on the USSR and China. There are also chapters on Latin America, Africa, and the rest of Asia. A great read for those interested.
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Old 10-19-2004, 01:00 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling


Meggie--it just came out in theatres, I believe ????
It came out in the UK in September (I think...maybe even late August), and was in theatres until just recently. For some reason, it's one of those rare films that the UK gets before the US. Usually we get movies in theatres here about the time they're released on DVD in the US.
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Old 10-19-2004, 07:00 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Perhaps in the beginning, but Castro is the main reason Che left Cuba as the two had a number of differences once Castro rose to power.

I have the goodbye letter Che wrote to Castro (you can buy copies of it in Cuba - beautiful country to visit, btw). He did have a way with words. In the letter, you can tell he had a great respect for Castro, but also took great care to distance himself from Cuba, because of the inner struggles that took place then and the fact that it was Castro who essentially forced him out when Che became a political liability.




I think SD is right when she says he got carried away with revolutionary zeal. There are admirable things he believed in, and there are terrible things he also did. So, as I said, he is a man of his time and his life is best understood in that revolutionary context.

This is utterly fascinating, Antriam, thank you. Do you have any more info? It seems here as if he's pretty adoring of Castro as a mentor and inspiration. Do you know what exactly they disagreed on? Why did he become a liability for Castro?

Froggie, I hear ya. And I don't see anyone here overlooking Che's...what, crimes? Flaws? Errors? Sins? I would hardly compare him to Stalin, who really didn't follow much actual Marxist teaching from what I know. But still, he doesn't get a free pass. I guess what fascinates me about him, as you suggest, is the fact that he seems to be the one that non-communists seem to at least believe was sincere. Why did a cult build up around him, and not Marx himself, or Lenin, or Mao? Why is El Doctor the one on the t-shirts of white-bread middle class college kids? He clearly represents something to people, despite the history you rightly refer to. Makes me wonder how much folks really know about him. And it suggests that the injustices Marxism was meant to address, despite its failure to do so, are still very much with us.

Cheers,
SD
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Old 10-19-2004, 08:13 AM   #22
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Good response SD. Sorry if anyone thought I was trying to point a finger at them about excusing Che. I guess I was just trying to point out the inconsistencies of different people, not necessarily in here.
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Old 10-20-2004, 12:39 PM   #23
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No worries Ft Worth!

Politics aside, it's worth seeing for Gael Gabriel's performance along. Not to mention the gorgeous travel porn.

SD
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Old 10-20-2004, 03:06 PM   #24
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Speaking of justice for Latin America...
thought I'd pass this along for the Angels, though it's not exactly specific to debt. The IMF's structural adjustment often leaves the rural poor without access to safe water. Please take a moment to send this fax....

Peace,
Cheryl




***Important reminder***

***Please post widely***



[¡Para español ver abajo!]



Call or fax before Thursday October 21!

Calls and Faxes Still Necessary! Turn the Postponement into a Cancellation!

Stop Illegal Privatization of Water Service in Nicaragua!



Call the President of the Inter-American Development Bank, Dr. Enrique Iglesias, to urge him to stop the privatization of Nicaragua's water! Send copies to Nicaraguan officials!



[This information comes to you from the Nicaragua Network. For more information, contact Katherine Hoyt at e-mail kathy@afgj.org or telephone (202) 544-9355).]



The opening of the bids for the modernization of the management of Nicaragua's water delivery services (ENACAL) was postponed last week, thanks to the active organizing of Nicaraguan organizations such as the National Consumers' Defense Network and the Community Movement along with your sign-on letter (with the names of over 200 organizations from around the world) and your calls and faxes to the Inter-American Development Bank! Alejandro Bendaña, of the Managua-based Center for International Studies, was able to turn the international sign-on letter over to Dr. Iglesias in person at a conference in Rome. Iglesias promised to contact the IDB representative in Nicaragua about the matter. [To read the sign-on letter with all the signers, go to www.nicanet.org.]



The Inter-American Development Bank extended the loan of US$13.9 million to the government of Nicaragua to privatize the "modernization of the management of water delivery and sewage services" (as the Bank euphemistically calls water privatization) in that country. Nicaraguan activists are now asking for your continued support to turn the postponement into a complete cancellation! There will be a National Assembly hearing on October 21st to examine the water concession issue. Remember this is only a postponement! Privatization could still happen! Your calls and letters are still necessary!



ENACAL officials said that a new date will have to be set up in consultation with the Inter-American Development Bank which is why we must continue to put pressure on the IDB! The National Assembly is a key player in the struggle against water privatization. Deputy Jaime Morales, who heads the Environment Committee of the Assembly, said last week that under no circumstances would his committee permit that ENACAL be privatized. "We have said categorically from the beginning that we are against any process of privatization of water, under any modality, directly or indirectly," stated Morales.



The water management privatization loan was extended in the face of strong opposition by the people of Nicaragua to the privatization of water or its delivery. Moreover, current Nicaraguan law forbids any kind of concession of water until a general water law is passed.



Please continue to call and write the office of the President of the Inter-American Development Bank Dr. Enrique Iglesias urging him to cancel this loan. Organizations should letters on their official letter head.



A sample letter in Spanish can be found below or you can write your own in English based on the talking points, also below.



Dr. Enrique Iglesias, President

Inter-American Development Bank

Washington, DC

Tel: (202) 623-1100 Fax: (202) 623-1799



Send copies of letters to:



Carlos Noguera

President of the National Assembly, Managua, Nicaragua

E-mail: cnoguera@correo.asamblea.gob.ni

Fax: 011-505-228-3039



Edwin Castro

Partido FSLN

Asamblea Nacional

E-mail: ecastro@correo.asamblea.gob.ni



Enrique Quiñonez

Partido Liberal Constitutionalista

Asamblea Nacional

E-mail: equinonez@correo.asamblea.gob.ni



President Enrique Bolaños

Presidente de la República de Nicaragua

Fax: 011-505-228-9298



To contact the IDB in other nations, consult http://www.iadb.org/hrd/phone/co.html

for IDB country offices phone and fax numbers in Latin America, Europe and Japan.



Make these points when you call or fax the IDB (or send letter in Spanish using sample below):



1. In 2003, the Nicaraguan National Assembly passed a moratorium on any privatization of water resources until a national water law was approved. Two separate bills on this subject are pending at the present time in the National Assembly, making it illegal to extend any concessions on water at the present and, depending which version is passed, in the future as well.



2. Nicaraguans have held spirited demonstrations in recent weeks in Managua to show their opposition to water privatization. 3. Nicaraguans have already suffered the failed privatization of telecommunications and of the supply of electricity in their country.



4. Nicaraguans view water as a human right, not as a commodity! Tell Dr. Iglesias that you do also!



5. There should always be full participation of all sectors of civil society in any decision-making about public services, which did not occur in this case.



6. The US$13.9 million loan [Loan 1049/SF-NI] extended by the Inter-American Development Bank to pay for this contract will create a new debt that all Nicaraguans will have to pay.



7. The jobs of ENACAL workers will be left at the mercy of the company that wins the concession, which will hire them as contractors only if it is convenient for the company, in open violation of collective bargaining agreements.



8. For all these reasons, the loan for the water "modernization" tract should be cancelled. The recent postponement should be made permanent.



For more information, Katherine Hoyt at the Nicaragua Network (e-mail kathy@afgj.org or telephone (202) 544-9355). Sample letter in Spanish:



Dr. Enrique V. Iglesias

Presidente

Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo

Washington, DC

Fax: (202) 623-1799



Estimado Dr. Iglesias:



Estoy preocupado al conocer las intenciones de privatizar la modernizacion de la gestión de los servicios de agua potable y alcantarillado en Nicaragua. El pueblo nicaraguense sufre las consecuencias económicas y sociales de la generalizada privatización; entre ellas está la privatización del suministro eléctrico y de telecomunicaciones en su país y se ha movilizado para protestar contra la privatización del agua, pues al igual que nosotros, consideran que el acceso a este recurso es un derecho humano. Dada la importancia de este servicio, es necesaria la participación plena de la sociedad en la discusión y toma de decisiones sobre su destino, cosa que no ha ocurrido en este caso.



Para esta concesión se emplearán $13.9 millones de dolares estadounidenses que el Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo está otorgando a cuenta de nuevas deudas que tendrán que pagar todos los nicaragüenses. Quiero recordar al BID que en el año 2003 se aprobó en Nicaragua la Ley 440 que prohíbe cualquier tipo de concesión sobre el agua o los recursos hídricos mientras no sea aprobado una ley general de aguas, la cual se está debatiendo en este momento en la Asamblea Nacional. Por los señalados, le insto a que cancele el Préstamo 1049/SF-NI que financia la concesión para la modernización de la gestión de los servicios de agua potable y alcantarillado de Nicaragua, por su ilegalidad frente a las normas legales vigentes y porque solo representa más endeudamiento para el pueblo nicaragüense.



Atentamente,



[Your name]



cc. Ing. Enrique Bolaños, Presidente de Nicaragua

Carlos Antonio Noguera, Presidente de la Asamblea Nacional de Nicaragua

y otros



For more information, Katherine Hoyt at the Nicaragua Network (e-mail kathy@afgj.org or telephone (202) 544-9355).



*******************



*****Difundir ampliamente!***********



15 octubre 2004



¡Llamar or faxear antes del jueves 21 octubre!

Agua para Nicaragua:

¡Pospusieron la licitación!

¡Todavía se necesita cartas y llamadas!



¡Parar la privatización illegal del servicio de agua en Nicaragua!

Escriba o llame al Banco Inter-Americano de Desarrollo!



La licitación para la modernizacion de la gestión de los servicios de agua potable y alcantarillado en Nicaragua fue pospuesto la semana pasada, gracias a las presiones de organizaciones nicaragüenses, como la Red Nacional de Defensa de los Consumidores y el Movimiento Comunal, y también a las presiones internacionales! Más de 200 organizaciones de todas partes del mundo firmaron una carta al Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo y muchos individuos llamaron o enviaron faxes al BID. Alejandro Bendaña del Centro de Estudios Internacionales en Managua pudo entregar la carta personalmente al Dr. Enrique Iglesias en Roma. El presidente del BID prometió ponerse en contacto con el representante del BID en Managua. [Para ver la carta con todas sus firmas, visite www.nicanet.org.]



El Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo otorgó un prestamo de $13.9 millones de dólares al gobierno de Nicaragua para privatizar la modernización del sumistro de los servicios de agua y alcantarillado en el país. Esto se hizo en la cara a fuerte oposición a la privatización del agua o de su sumistro de parte de organizaciones de la sociedad civil de ese país hasta que se apruebe una ley general de agua. Dos proyectos de ley sobre ese tema están pendiente en este momento en la Asamblea Nacional. La carta con más de 200 firmas de grupos de todo el mundo fue enviada el 7 de octubre 2004 al Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo [con copias al Presidente Enrique Bolaños y al presidente de la Asamblea Nacional y a la empresa nacional de agua ENACAL] instándole a cancelar este préstamo ilegal. Dada la presión tanto de adentro de Nicaragua como desde afuera, la licitación, programada para el 10 de octubre, fue pospuesto.



Pero esto no es una cancelación y es urgente que su organización o Ud. de manera individual escriba al BID explicando las razones por las cuales se oponen a la privatización de agua, viéndolo no como una mercancía, sino como un derecho humano. Oficiales de ENACAL dijeron que tendrán que fijar una fecha nueva para la licitación en consultación con el BID, y por esa razón tenemos que siguir presionando a los oficiales del BID.



La Asamblea Nacional también juega un papel importante en el asunto ya que sus miembros pueden cancelar la licitación. El diputado Jaime Morales dijo la semana pasada, "Hemos manifestado de manera categórica desde un inicio que estamos en contra de cualquier proceso de privatización del agua, bajo cualquier modalidad directa e indirecta."



Para ponerse en contacto con el BID en otros paises, vaya a http://www.iadb.org/aboutus/VII/inde...nguage=Spanish



Escriba o llame a:



Dr. Enrique Iglesias

Presidente del Banco Interamericano del Desarrollo

Washington, DC EE.UU.

Tel: (202) 623-1100 Fax: (202) 623-1799



Envie copias a:



Carlos Noguera

Presidente de la Asamblea Nacional de Nicaragua

E-mail: cnoguera@correo.asamblea.gob.ni

Fax: 011-505-228-3039



Edwin Castro

Partido FSLN

Asamblea Nacional

E-mail: ecastro@correo.asamblea.gob.ni



Enrique Quiñonez

Partido Liberal Constitutionalista

Asamblea Nacional

E-mail: equinonez@correo.asamblea.gob.ni



President Enrique Bolaños

Presidente de la República de Nicaragua

Fax: 011-505-228-9298



Para más información, escriba or llame a Katherine Hoyt de la Nicaragua Network (kathy@afgj.org o 202-544-9355).



Carta ejemplo: Dr. Enrique V. Iglesias

Presidente

Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo

Washington, DC

Fax: (202) 623-1799



Estimado Dr. Iglesias:



Estoy preocupado al conocer las intenciones de privatizar la modernizacion de la gestión de los servicios de agua potable y alcantarillado en Nicaragua. El pueblo nicaraguense sufre las consecuencias económicas y sociales de la generalizada privatización; entre ellas está la privatización del suministro eléctrico y de telecomunicaciones en su país y se ha movilizado para protestar contra la privatización del agua, pues al igual que yo, consideran que el acceso a este recurso es un derecho humano. Dada la importancia de este servicio, es necesaria la participación plena de la sociedad en la discusión y toma de decisiones sobre su destino, cosa que no ha ocurrido en este caso.



Para esta concesión se emplearán $13.9 millones de dolares estadounidenses que el Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo está otorgando a cuenta de nuevas deudas que tendrán que pagar todos los nicaragüenses. Quiero recordar al BID que en el año 2003 se aprobó en Nicaragua la Ley 440 que prohíbe cualquier tipo de concesión sobre el agua o los recursos hídricos mientras no sea aprobado una ley general de aguas, la cual se está debatiendo en este momento en la Asamblea Nacional. Por los señalados, le insto a que cancele el Préstamo 1049/SF-NI que financia la concesión para la modernización de la gestión de los servicios de agua potable y alcantarillado de Nicaragua, por su ilegalidad frente a las normas legales vigentes y porque solo representa más endeudamiento para el pueblo nicaragüense.



Atentamente,



[su nombre o el nombre de su organización]



cc. Ing. Enrique Bolaños, Presidente de Nicaragua

Carlos Antonio Noguera, Presidente de la Asamblea Nacional de Nicaragua

y otros



*************************************



Para mayor información, comuníquese con Katherine Hoyt de la Nicaragua Network en los EE.UU. (kathy@afgj.org o (202) 544-9355).
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